Gender fluid...!

[Grahamm]

Yes, I do know that very well because I wore glasses at school.

Specky four eyes!  Bet you had those NHS ones too!

Yes, I did.

You ain't by chance bald now too?

(Checks 12" pony tail)

Err, nope...!

[Grahamm]

Strange how many people on this forum who don't read the Daily Mail seem to know what is written in it.

Because, unfortunately, some people like to post links to Daily Heil stories without giving adequate warning that they go to that hate rag...

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=23665.msg274266#msg274266 date=1516551994]
Kids are little bastards, it's because they're kids and in the early learning stage.
Most grow out of it, some carry on being a bastard in later life too.
If anything they're worse now than they've ever been, mainly in the big cities.
If you think you can change them......good luck.

Children are not born racist.
Children are not born sexist.
Children are not born homophobic.
Children are not born trans-phobic
etc etc etc

But if they see older children and adults behaving in a particular way, they will copy that behaviour and it will become innate because they don't know any different. Then they go and replicate that behaviour and the whole sorry story continues.

I have two friends, one is a cis-woman, the other a trans-woman and they have a delightful little daughter who is very intelligent. One day she was outside and a little girl from a neighbour's house met her and they started playing.

Suddenly the other girl's mother came rushing out, dragging her daughter away saying "No, we don't play with her!"

That child is going to be brought up with the idea that two women (especially if one is trans) are people to be avoided, simply because her mother is a bigot.

Another example: there was a series on the BBC not long ago called "No more boys and girls" where a Doctor went into a Primary School class and changed the way they were taught, getting rid everything from gender separated coat racks to the teacher calling boys "mate" and girls "love".

The boy had an over-exaggerated idea of their own abilities whilst the girls were much less confident, but by the end of it, the girls were more self-confident interested in STEM careers etc and the boys behaviour was much improved and they were considerate of other people.

See https://www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvf...13406.html

So it *is* possible to stop children being little bastards but we need to start by making sure they don't *learn* to be little bastards!
[/quote]


Actually i think you're just pissing in the wind if you think you can "teach" someone their personality.
Everyone has their own ideas and way of thinking which nobody else can have full control over at all. This is easily demonstrated by siblings who have grown up in the same household but then go their different ways, and can end up totally unlike each other due to the path they each took.
Also, once you leave your house for your first ever day at school you just don't know who your friends might be, or who might influence you whilst growing up. It's completely unknown if your kid for example suddenly becomes best friends with a loner, or is an attention seeker who wants to be in control of everyone?
Certainly there are aspects of home life that can influence a kid massively, best measured by the amount of attention given to them by their parents, but once they're in the company of kids that's when it can all go very good, or very bad.
As for children not being born racist, homophobic, etc, that all might work in your ideal land, but the reality is our schools these days are being filled with kids from certain religions where all of these things are blatantly taught as being "taboo" to say the very least, starting at home, so again there is also that mountain to climb.
Another thing that needs to be mentioned is the amount of drugs that are so easily available these days that have flooded the world. I never had any idea whatsoever about drugs when i was at school, not a clue, but you look at any suburban film involving teenage kids these days and there seems to be a constant flow and misuse of drugs. Guaranteed to change the nicest personality in the world to a fucked up degenerate.

[YamFazFan]

You ain't by chance bald now too?

(Checks 12" pony tail)

Err, nope...!

:useless

[Hugh Mungus]

I do agree with you Graham but unfortunately I don't see it ever happening. Even if kids are taught all these things they will still pick up phrases and prejudices as they go through life. Whether they act on them is an entirely different matter.
I'm not saying don't bother to teach it but rather don't expect a sea change within our lifetime.

[YamFazFan]

Daily Heil

:lol :lol Not heard that one before.


I bet you tuck a copy inside your Guardian so we don't all know that you're reading it :lol

[VNA]

Yes, I did.

Ho, ho!  Which means you must be of a certain age…….

(Checks 12" pony tail)

And a specky old git wi a baldy patch and pony tail! 

Everyone has their own ideas and way of thinking which nobody else can have full control over at all. This is easily demonstrated by siblings who have grown up in the same household but then go their different ways, and can end up totally unlike each other due to the path they each took.

I can’t help thinking of the Hitler Youth for some reason.  But, no, no, no, kids can’t be influenced never mind brainwashed.  And your average human could never be considered in anyway sheep like.  No, no, no.  Naw, everybody is 100% free minded and thinks for themselves, and of course right from the day they were born.

As for children not being born racist, homophobic, etc, that all might work in your ideal land, but the reality is our schools these days are being filled with kids from certain religions where all of these things are blatantly taught as being "taboo" to say the very least, starting at home, so again there is also that mountain to climb.

Just sounds like the 70’s and 80’s when I was at school.  Every week the bigot from the local church came to lecture us.

It's considered fashionable to slam newspapers such as the Daily Mail.

Common sense and always has been, nothing to do with fashion.  Yes sensible mtread.

[Grahamm]

Actually i think you're just pissing in the wind if you think you can "teach" someone their personality.

You're right, but, there again, I didn't say that.

What you *can* do is give them better ideas on how to behave towards other people.

As for children not being born racist, homophobic, etc, that all might work in your ideal land, but the reality is our schools these days are being filled with kids from certain religions where all of these things are blatantly taught as being "taboo" to say the very least, starting at home, so again there is also that mountain to climb.

And you then have the choice of balkanising groups, just like the "We don't play with her" mother I mentioned above, or you can actually *TALK* to people and try to understand their viewpoints and, just maybe, they'll understand ours instead of everyone developing a "them and us" mentality.

But if you don't listen, you'll never learn.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned is the amount of drugs that are so easily available these days that have flooded the world. I never had any idea whatsoever about drugs when i was at school, not a clue, but you look at any suburban film involving teenage kids these days and there seems to be a constant flow and misuse of drugs. Guaranteed to change the nicest personality in the world to a fucked up degenerate.

Yes, because, as Professor David Nutt pointed out to the Home Office, MDMA (Ecstasy) is no more dangerous than riding a horse and Cannabis is less dangerous (and causes less problems) than alcohol.

But, hey, let's all just get pissed and smoke fags because *they* aren't a problem...

[Grahamm]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=23665.msg274364#msg274364 date=1516664424]

You ain't by chance bald now too?

(Checks 12" pony tail)

Err, nope...!

:useless
[/quote]

https://www.affordable-leather.co.uk/gra...aham-1.jpg
https://www.affordable-leather.co.uk/gra...aham-2.jpg

[Grahamm]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=23665.msg274365#msg274365 date=1516664541]
Daily Heil

:lol :lol Not heard that one before.
I bet you tuck a copy inside your Guardian so we don't all know that you're reading it :lol
[/quote]

I don't read any newspapers.

I do read online articles from various sources, but given that even Wikipedia doesn't consider the DM a reliable source of information...!

Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.

[Grahamm]

Ho, ho!  Which means you must be of a certain age……

I'm 52. 53 in April.

So what?

(Checks 12" pony tail)

And a specky old git wi a baldy patch and pony tail! 

No bald patch, see the picture links above. And I wear contact lenses and have been since I was 16.

Grey hair, yes, but that's a genetic trait in my family because I started going grey in my 20s as did my father, grandfather and uncle.

[darrsi]

[quote author=YamFazFan link=topic=23665.msg274386#msg274386 date=1516704227]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=23665.msg274365#msg274365 date=1516664541]
Daily Heil

:lol :lol Not heard that one before.
I bet you tuck a copy inside your Guardian so we don't all know that you're reading it :lol
[/quote]

I don't read any newspapers.

I do read online articles from various sources, but given that even Wikipedia doesn't consider the DM a reliable source of information...!

Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.

[/quote]


Using Wikipedia as a defence against something being unreliable is just a moot point.

[darrsi]

[quote author=YamFazFan link=topic=23665.msg274386#msg274386 date=1516704227]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=23665.msg274365#msg274365 date=1516664541]
Daily Heil

:lol :lol Not heard that one before.
I bet you tuck a copy inside your Guardian so we don't all know that you're reading it :lol
[/quote]

I don't read any newspapers.

I do read online articles from various sources, but given that even Wikipedia doesn't consider the DM a reliable source of information...!

Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.

[/quote]


Again, not entirely sure why you're even badmouthing the DM, if by your own admission you don't even read newspapers?
You don't have to believe everything word for word, it's quite easy to spot the irrelevant bullshit or just completely made up stories (like most papers), but it's still a source of info regardless.
Just read what takes your interest, there's certainly enough of it to choose from. For example i'm not interested in sport or politics so that's a large chunk i can overlook straight away, plus gets me away from their own political stance that people seem to be going on about.

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=23665.msg274368#msg274368 date=1516692333]
Actually i think you're just pissing in the wind if you think you can "teach" someone their personality.

You're right, but, there again, I didn't say that.

What you *can* do is give them better ideas on how to behave towards other people.

As for children not being born racist, homophobic, etc, that all might work in your ideal land, but the reality is our schools these days are being filled with kids from certain religions where all of these things are blatantly taught as being "taboo" to say the very least, starting at home, so again there is also that mountain to climb.

And you then have the choice of balkanising groups, just like the "We don't play with her" mother I mentioned above, or you can actually *TALK* to people and try to understand their viewpoints and, just maybe, they'll understand ours instead of everyone developing a "them and us" mentality.

But if you don't listen, you'll never learn.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned is the amount of drugs that are so easily available these days that have flooded the world. I never had any idea whatsoever about drugs when i was at school, not a clue, but you look at any suburban film involving teenage kids these days and there seems to be a constant flow and misuse of drugs. Guaranteed to change the nicest personality in the world to a fucked up degenerate.

Yes, because, as Professor David Nutt pointed out to the Home Office, MDMA (Ecstasy) is no more dangerous than riding a horse and Cannabis is less dangerous (and causes less problems) than alcohol.

But, hey, let's all just get pissed and smoke fags because *they* aren't a problem...
[/quote]


Hasn't home life and schools agendas been all about teaching right from wrong from an early age? Are we not doing that now, still? It's multiculturalism that could well be the downfall and undoing of any previously good work.
Like it or not, the facts are that there are so many different stances to life in the UK right now that it's all going a bit Pete Tong. And the "them and us" gap is becoming much wider. We have UK teachers trying to teach kids from all over the world about how "we" think life should be lived but then these same kids go back home and they're immediately back in their home land, and it all goes out the window. Some of these kids, and adults, have seen acts of atrocity that we wouldn't even see in horror films, that have almost become the norm for them, and i've no doubt they're still etched quite clearly in their minds. Problem is, to some of them, mad violence, homophobia, etc, was just a part of everyday life, they know no different yet we have these kids integrating with British kids so as you can guess trying to get such a class full of kids to all behave the same and understand decent values is indeed like "pissing in the wind".


As for the drug thing, yes we all know booze and cigarettes are harmful, nobody's even trying to dispute that at all, but i think it's all about not adding to problems we already have. Government are trying to outprice cigarettes with added horrifying ad campaign to try and make you quit, and i think it is slowly but surely making an impact on a lot of people.
In my opinion the only people who would benefit from legalizing certain drugs would be the "stay at home" type.
If you're using cannabis for example to ease illness pain, then good luck to you, i'm all for that. But don't expect employers to tolerate drug use, 'cos they won't due to health & safety issues, the same as booze isn't tolerated at work either. The problem with cannabis is how long it stays in your system, so employers won't tolerate it and i doubt very much the drug driving laws would change at all either, so you can can see what i meant by "stay at home" type. The unemployed would think they've hit the jackpot, but as we all know if you're gonna do it then you're already doing it.
Comparing taking Ecstasy to riding a horse, well, that's a bit like your DM / Wikipedia comment, just irrelevant.

[YamFazFan]

[quote author=VNA link=topic=23665.msg274416#msg274416 date=1516734297]
Ho, ho!  Which means you must be of a certain age……

I'm 52. 53 in April.

So what?


[/quote]


Is that age discrimination? :rolleyes

Sounds a bit like it maybe.

[YamFazFan]

I can say with all honesty that I've never bought the Mail. We get it free with the shopping from Waitrose.


Have to pay for The Sun though  :pokefun :pokefun :pokefun :pokefun

[Grahamm]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=23665.msg274423#msg274423 date=1516751890]

I do read online articles from various sources, but given that even Wikipedia doesn't consider the DM a reliable source of information...!

Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.

Using Wikipedia as a defence against something being unreliable is just a moot point.
[/quote]

I think you're missing the irony here...!

[Grahamm]

Again, not entirely sure why you're even badmouthing the DM, if by your own admission you don't even read newspapers?

Sigh, if it helps your pedantry, I don't BUY the DM, however I can SEE the headlines and LOOK at what is on its front page when I go past the displays.

Similarly, if someone posts a copy of a story from it etc, then that makes me aware of what it publishes.

Better?

it's still a source of info regardless.

So was Pravda...

[Grahamm]

Hasn't home life and schools agendas been all about teaching right from wrong from an early age?

Yes and there have been a lot of failed approaches which we shouldn't be using any more, yet are still out there.

It's multiculturalism that could well be the downfall and undoing of any previously good work.[...] Problem is, to some of them, mad violence, homophobia, etc, was just a part of everyday life, they know no different yet we have these kids integrating with British kids so as you can guess trying to get such a class full of kids to all behave the same and understand decent values is indeed like "pissing in the wind".

Right, so let's not bother then. Let's just give up and let them go on their "mad homophobic way"...

don't expect employers to tolerate drug use

I never said they should, just as, as you mention, someone turning up to work drunk.

The problem with cannabis is how long it stays in your system

The effects wear off after around 4-8 hours, similar to a few pints of average beer. Of course most people don't realise that a heavy drinking session on a Sunday night will still impair them on a Monday morning.

Comparing taking Ecstasy to riding a horse, well, that's a bit like your DM / Wikipedia comment, just irrelevant.

No, it's pointing out how ridiculous the current "harm reduction" drug laws are.

And if you want laws to "reduce harm", the first thing to do is ban motorcycles because they make up almost 20% of the KSI statistics...

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=23665.msg274430#msg274430 date=1516778507]
Hasn't home life and schools agendas been all about teaching right from wrong from an early age?

Yes and there have been a lot of failed approaches which we shouldn't be using any more, yet are still out there.

It's multiculturalism that could well be the downfall and undoing of any previously good work.[...] Problem is, to some of them, mad violence, homophobia, etc, was just a part of everyday life, they know no different yet we have these kids integrating with British kids so as you can guess trying to get such a class full of kids to all behave the same and understand decent values is indeed like "pissing in the wind".

Right, so let's not bother then. Let's just give up and let them go on their "mad homophobic way"...

don't expect employers to tolerate drug use

I never said they should, just as, as you mention, someone turning up to work drunk.

The problem with cannabis is how long it stays in your system

The effects wear off after around 4-8 hours, similar to a few pints of average beer. Of course most people don't realise that a heavy drinking session on a Sunday night will still impair them on a Monday morning.

Comparing taking Ecstasy to riding a horse, well, that's a bit like your DM / Wikipedia comment, just irrelevant.

No, it's pointing out how ridiculous the current "harm reduction" drug laws are.

And if you want laws to "reduce harm", the first thing to do is ban motorcycles because they make up almost 20% of the KSI statistics...
[/quote]


For the record, most people know the effects of alcohol, and generally for example it will be out of your system after a booze up a definite 2 days later.
Unfortunately cannabis won’t be out of your system, even more so if you’re a regular user, so if you get pulled over and swabbed a week later you could still get nicked and banned due to the near zero tolerance drug driving laws, even though you will feel absolutely fine to drive and not feel under the influence at all.
Don’t get me wrong, i don’t agree with it at all, but they’re obviously doing it for a reason.
I’d much rather see the cokeheads driving like angry wankers nicked, than some chilled out driver just taking his time going from A to B.
I think most people know perfectly well that a piss up on a Sunday is a bad move, it’s no good for driving for starters and is no doubt the main reason for Monday morning fake illnesses regarding work. I never drink at all on a Sunday these days unless i have booked time off or it’s a Bank Holiday. I need a clear head anyway as Mondays can very often be a bit manic for me.