Downshift Blipping

[Flooky]

[quote author=Flooky link=topic=23205.msg267899#msg267899 date=1505165401]
[quote author=robbo link=topic=23205.msg267595#msg267595 date=1504734717]
[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=23205.msg267585#msg267585 date=1504732744]
[quote author=robbo link=topic=23205.msg267584#msg267584 date=1504732508]
I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.

I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".

[/quote]Well speaking for myself I thought this was an odd thread as blipping the throttle just comes naturally for me and is done without thinking. However in recent years I do come across younger riders that just smash their way down through the box and this would be on something without a slipper clutch. Quite possibly modern engineering negates what I'd call mechanical sympathy, but that's all I know.If someone's asking why or how down shifts are assisted with a blip of throttle I'd have to assume they were quite young or new to biking.
[/quote]
I have to agree with Robbo, I don't know how you could make progress ( go fast ) without blipping, if you just change down the bike slows and then you at the wrong part of the rev range to exit the corner briskly. I sort of don't really understand this post if I am honest. its like asking how to ride a bike really. don't wanna be rude .
[/quote]


Show me where blipping is taught in the motorcycle test!
I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.
If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking. However as Val explained that is not what happens. Sorry my lack of technical expertise lead me to ask a question on a forum designed to help everyone!
[/quote]
Your right, sorry, the forum is designed to help. I think sometimes there is an assumed amount of bike knowledge and that is wrong.
Try blipping, makes for smoother gear changes, less jerky if you have a pillion too.
I think also what goes on in the bike test is not really useful in the real world.
cheers.

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=Skippernick link=topic=23205.msg267972#msg267972 date=1505248819]
If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking.

Yes that's why I do it -- to negate the engine braking - or the amount of braking because I am in control of it by how much I blip I then use the front brake instead of letting the engine braking brake the back wheel as IT wants. But all that depends on my speed before the action and my planned speed after it and the degree of the corner or the speed at which I need to slow down and also the road conditions at the time that all lead me to the blip action-front brake - a little bit of engine braking (controlled by the blip ) and no back brake at least mostly until the end- all done without thinking.  :thumbup
I have no idea why they don't teach it
Do they teach counter steering. _Genuine question, I don't know  because that is another skill in the same sort of bracket I would say. 
Another one - do they teach clutch less up shifting.
[/quote]

No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works. And as for clutchless upshifts..... the way you get taught is that there's a clutch there for a reason.
Like anything you don't start learning until you've passed the test.

Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? The driving instructor who's been teaching people to pass tests for 15+years or the ex racer thats raced for 15+ years?

[Skippernick]

[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=23205.msg267979#msg267979 date=1505252244]
[quote author=Skippernick link=topic=23205.msg267972#msg267972 date=1505248819]
If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking.

Yes that's why I do it -- to negate the engine braking - or the amount of braking because I am in control of it by how much I blip I then use the front brake instead of letting the engine braking brake the back wheel as IT wants. But all that depends on my speed before the action and my planned speed after it and the degree of the corner or the speed at which I need to slow down and also the road conditions at the time that all lead me to the blip action-front brake - a little bit of engine braking (controlled by the blip ) and no back brake at least mostly until the end- all done without thinking.  :thumbup
I have no idea why they don't teach it
Do they teach counter steering. _Genuine question, I don't know  because that is another skill in the same sort of bracket I would say. 
Another one - do they teach clutch less up shifting.
[/quote]

No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works. And as for clutchless upshifts..... the way you get taught is that there's a clutch there for a reason.
Like anything you don't start learning until you've passed the test.

Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? The driving instructor who's been teaching people to pass tests for 15+years or the ex racer thats raced for 15+ years?
[/quote]


Was that racer training specifically for a road emergency stop, not heard that one before.
I feel a group test on an airfield coming on.

[Bretty]

...Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? ...

I was told on my lessons to leave the clutch engaged until the last minute because... it helps prevent the rear wheel from locking up, which is a fail during the Mod A test.

Who's to say who's right and wrong?! Personally I pull in the clutch during an emergency stop, but use the clutch/engine braking when doing heavy high speed braking.

[vinnyb]

[quote author=Dudeofrude link=topic=23205.msg268024#msg268024 date=1505313835]
[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=23205.msg267979#msg267979 date=1505252244]


No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works.

You're right about countersteering being the way a 2 wheeled vehicle turns but only above a certain speed, 10-15mph? so we must all do it intuitively from day one, but when you are aware of it and do it consciously and positively you can become more accurate with turn in points and changing your line while your leant over. I'd been riding for years before I knew about it. Back around 1984/ 85ish my then girlfriend (now wife) bought me a book called 'superbiking' for Christmas, written by a bloke called Blackett Ditchburn which was very educational about all sorts of stuff bike (riding) related, Don morley did the photography, loads of early 80's stuff, Kats and CBXs and the like. Anyone else read it?
[/quote][/quote]

[Oldgit]

Buy a BMW R1200RS SE then you don't have to blip the throttle, just down shift easy peasy pudding and pie.

[Robbie8666]

out of interest I just been out for a ride (Portsmouth to Basingstoke) and actually thought about how I change gear, I not sure what you mean by throttle blipping as in giving more throttle as you change down, but I did notice that I shut my throttle off momentarily as I changed down!
don't know why I do it but I noticed it was an automatic reaction!

[fazersharp]

out of interest I just been out for a ride (Portsmouth to Basingstoke) and actually thought about how I change gear, I not sure what you mean by throttle blipping as in giving more throttle as you change down, but I did notice that I shut my throttle off momentarily as I changed down!
don't know why I do it but I noticed it was an automatic reaction!

It gos - throttle off -clutch in -blip throttle on - change down -let clutch out. And mostly accompanied with two fingers braking on the front, The blip spins up the engine so you dont get such a big engine brake effect on the back wheel and you are more in control of the engine braking by how much you blip and also at the same time braking more with the front than with the back via the engine 

[F4celess]

I will come clean and state I got my full A1 license through taking a DAS course. I did however ride scooters in my youth (so wasn't unfamiliar to motorcycles).
At no time did any of the Instructors through the "big bike" lessons, talk about blipping the throttle for smoother (+ mechanical wear reducing) gear changes.

It's down as an advanced technique, primarily Sports bikes (on the race circuit), when decelerating rapidly, from high speeds, is a norm.
In which case, why should it be necessary to "blip shift" under normal, public road riding/commuting circumstances?

If you have physically slowed to the point you feel a gear down (or 2) is necessary, the engine has already slowed sufficiently, and the gear down wont affect the revs to any great extent. Hence a "regular" clutch in / change gear / SMOOTH clutch out, should be sufficient?

..............perhaps I just don't ride fast enough :lol

[Jamieg285]

I've been reading this post with interest, as to my knowledge I've never blipped on downshifts.  I've given it a bit of a go and not got on with it, but I think that's a timing issue more than anything, and may be suiited to specific scenarios.  I've found in most cases I'm already braking when shifting down, so trying to brake and blip isn't easy.  I suspect it comes more into it's own when you are flowing at faster speeds and having braked are going down the gears ready for the next power blast.

What I did notice is that in some cases I've been holding a fixed throttle position when changing down.  This has the effect of a mild blip when you pull the clutch as it releases the load on the engine.

[tommyardin]

I will come clean and state I got my full A1 license through taking a DAS course. I did however ride scooters in my youth (so wasn't unfamiliar to motorcycles).
At no time did any of the Instructors through the "big bike" lessons, talk about blipping the throttle for smoother (+ mechanical wear reducing) gear changes.

It's down as an advanced technique, primarily Sports bikes (on the race circuit), when decelerating rapidly, from high speeds, is a norm.
In which case, why should it be necessary to "blip shift" under normal, public road riding/commuting circumstances?

If you have physically slowed to the point you feel a gear down (or 2) is necessary, the engine has already slowed sufficiently, and the gear down wont affect the revs to any great extent. Hence a "regular" clutch in / change gear / SMOOTH clutch out, should be sufficient?

..............perhaps I just don't ride fast enough :lol

A lot of the things you do while riding are personal, some blip some don't.
Blipping most definitely will get you down through the box faster and smoother, it will really help you gain the most out of the braking effect of the engine,  the whole process will be more fluid and controlled. As you know being fully in control as you enter a bend is a must, and as you go rapidly down through the box will will be in control and also in the right gear with the right rev band to acceleration back out of the bend, powering on as see the bend start to straighten at its vanishing point.
My opinion only of course. 


The only negative thing about blipping the throttle on the change down is that you will use slightly more fuel, a small price to pay for smooth changes, gained braking effect and more control.   

[VNA]

I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.

  Sometimes I take it easy, other times I’m blasting along.  I’d guess if I’m hard on the brakes then trailing the front brake into a corner whilst popping down a couple of gears at the same time, well if I didn’t, err, ‘blip’ the throttle, I’d possibly end up on my arse.  I’ve always done it, it’s how you down change unless you are piddling along and then you don’t even need the clutch for down changes.

Now this gets me wondering.  Like most folks here I also have and drive a car.  I’ve always driven manual cars, and yeah I do the same in the car, although yeah sometimes I’ll just let that clutch slip a lot cos heel toes is tricky and to be honest I suspect in race and proper supercars the pedals will be placed nice and close to facilitate heel toe.  But is it the prevalence of automatics today, these fancy DSG boxes, is that why maybe folks are struggling to fully master manual gearing changing?  Just a thought.

Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer?

Well yeah Dudeofrude, there is only one way to make a bike turn, and that is to counter steer.  I just cannot believe that people are trained how to ride a bike on the road without being taught how to steer the bloody thing.  One of the first things I’ll often ask a new biker “is do you know how to steer?”  or “do you understand countersteering”  Hey I’ve had the odd youngster that’s told me it’s bull shite, but most have listened, tried it and thanked me for the tip.  Knowing how to steer and change direction at will and rapidly is an essential life saving skill.

[tommyardin]

I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.

  Sometimes I take it easy, other times I’m blasting along.  I’d guess if I’m hard on the brakes then trailing the front brake into a corner whilst popping down a couple of gears at the same time, well if I didn’t, err, ‘blip’ the throttle, I’d possibly end up on my arse.  I’ve always done it, it’s how you down change unless you are piddling along and then you don’t even need the clutch for down changes.

Now this gets me wondering.  Like most folks here I also have and drive a car.  I’ve always driven manual cars, and yeah I do the same in the car, although yeah sometimes I’ll just let that clutch slip a lot cos heel toes is tricky and to be honest I suspect in race and proper supercars the pedals will be placed nice and close to facilitate heel toe.  But is it the prevalence of automatics today, these fancy DSG boxes, is that why maybe folks are struggling to fully master manual gearing changing?  Just a thought.

Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer?

Well yeah Dudeofrude, there is only one way to make a bike turn, and that is to counter steer.  I just cannot believe that people are trained how to ride a bike on the road without being taught how to steer the bloody thing.  One of the first things I’ll often ask a new biker “is do you know how to steer?”  or “do you understand countersteering”  Hey I’ve had the odd youngster that’s told me it’s bull shite, but most have listened, tried it and thanked me for the tip.  Knowing how to steer and change direction at will and rapidly is an essential life saving skill.

With the exception of a Honda Accord I had always had manual gearboxes in car, but, have recently taken possession of a Merc SLK 2.3 Kompressor, now I never realised what a Kompressor actually was, I made the assumption that it was a turbo but in fact it is a crankshaft driven supercharger, hence better performance than the turbo and no lag what-so-ever that coupled with a 5 speed automatic tiptronic box, it makes for a rapid car, with incredibly rapid gear changes both up and down the box. it has a better top speed than my FZS 600 by about 10 mph but the good old Fazer beats it hands down 0-60 mph by almost 3 seconds, SLK 6.7 secs, FZS 600 3.8 seconds, if you can put the rubber down hard enough.


I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH and stunningly quick off the mark. Plus I love the retro look, a bit Star wars-ish but i love it.

[tommyardin]

What any of that has to do with blipping the throttle F--k  Only Knows

[nick crisp]

I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH

Weird how these Fazers get faster and faster as time goes by  :lol

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=tommyardin link=topic=23205.msg268109#msg268109 date=1505424886]

I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH

Weird how these Fazers get faster and faster as time goes by  :lol
[/quote]

Haha yeah especially when Yamaha only quote the top speed as 135mph ?

Then again they only quote the fz1 as 150mph, which I happen to know is misquoted ??

[fazersharp]

The only thing have actually learned by reading and finding something new to me after many years of riding is clutchless upshifting, up untill a couple of years ago I had never heard of it but tryed it and its great. But on the subject of countersteering I had never actually really heard of it - or have but never bothered looking in to exactly what it was but then when I did look into it and tried it I thought "oh that" I never knew it was a thing that had a name, its just what I do unconsciously maybe since I was 3 years old an riding a tryke.
So that aspect does not need teaching but perhaps a more conscious and physical input on the bars needs teaching and practicing for a more rapid emergency change of direction for new bikers.     

[tommyardin]

[size=1em]
The only thing have actually learned by reading and finding something new to me after many years of riding is clutchless upshifting, up untill a couple of years ago I had never heard of it but tryed it and its great. But on the subject of countersteering I had never actually really heard of it - or have but never bothered looking in to exactly what it was but then when I did look into it and tried it I thought "oh that" I never knew it was a thing that had a name, its just what I do unconsciously maybe since I was 3 years old an riding a tryke.
So that aspect does not need teaching but perhaps a more conscious and physical input on the bars needs teaching and practicing for a more rapid emergency change of direction for new bikers.   
[/size]

[size=1em]Typo on 147 should read 137 true speed on Tom Tom Bike Nav. Speedo shows more.[/size]
[size=1em]Apparently riding or driving anything with more than two wheels it is impossible to counter steer, that is why children have problems with the transition between a trycycle and a two wheel bike once stabilisers are removed. Motorcycle and sidecars do not counter steer that is why solo riders find it very difficult to steer a combo. That and the fact that you have to accelerate around the side car on left hinders and brake on the motorcycle and allow the side car to run around the motorcycle on right handlers.[/size]
[size=1em]All alien to a solo rider.[/size]

[size=1em]Some of the guys on here that do track days have reached speeds in access of 140 on FZS600's. [/size]

[tommyardin]

! No longer available


A FZS 600 not hanging about.


227 KPH at one point =141mph, again that is the speedo reading and not the true speed my guess would be 4 or 5 mph slower.

[Dudeofrude]

! No longer available


A FZS 600 not hanging about.


227 KPH at one point =141mph, again that is the speedo reading and not the true speed my guess would be 4 or 5 mph slower.

Yeah I would think once some basic mods are done (exhaust, air filter, jets etc) it would be easy to out perform Yamahas basic stats. As I said my fz1 is only supposed to do 150mph according to Yamaha yet it's been at 163mph on the dyno (which I would assume is accurate as a gps) so top speed figures and power figures should be taken with a pinch of salt