Bloody cyclists always get in the way!

[simonm]

I think that Counter steering gets explained wrong which confuses people, this pushing bars thing is wrong, the bars are somewhere to rest you hands,
and stop them flapping about in the wind 

I always understood countersteering as something you did in a car, when you flick the steering wheel the wrong way to kick the arse out to start what they call drifting now. :rolleyes

To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right.
One goes down giving the impression of being pushed because your elbow straightens and the other comes up giving the impression of being pulled because that elbow bends more.
I've followed a couple of people recently, I don't know if they are new bikers or fairweathers that haven't been out for a while, but you can see the stiffness in there bodies.
That tight neck raised shoulders. rod like back no flexablity in the body. if that did a bit of Weaving like GP racers do to warm their tyres up it would help them to loosen up the body and and get the feel for the bikes abilities again.

I dunno dude.  I get my explanation of counter steering from "a twist of the wrist" via youtube  [size=78%].[/size]

[Grahamm]

To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.

[noggythenog]

I think that Counter steering gets explained wrong which confuses people, this pushing bars thing is wrong, the bars are somewhere to rest you hands,
and stop them flapping about in the wind 

I always understood countersteering as something you did in a car, when you flick the steering wheel the wrong way to kick the arse out to start what they call drifting now. :rolleyes

To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right.
One goes down giving the impression of being pushed because your elbow straightens and the other comes up giving the impression of being pulled because that elbow bends more.
I've followed a couple of people recently, I don't know if they are new bikers or fairweathers that haven't been out for a while, but you can see the stiffness in there bodies.
That tight neck raised shoulders. rod like back no flexablity in the body. if that did a bit of Weaving like GP racers do to warm their tyres up it would help them to loosen up the body and and get the feel for the bikes abilities again.

Hey Mr Razgruff, interesting post indeed & i feel a classic example how much harder counter steering is to explain or imagine than it is to put into practice.I'm not having a go as i think you've brought up lots of good points even if we are a bit off from the original post but hey ho here's my tuppence worth :rolleyes .& yes it's long (im night shift :lol )
Clearly you can corner & have been doing so for some time, i'm just experimenting with limited experience but with good results but everything i've researched & tried so far indicates that it's mostly about pushing the bars.

People will instinctively move their bodies & twist their hips & to some extent this will assist with cornering but the majority of the work is done with the Bars & moving the body actually only improves the push on the bars.

Perhaps a flick of the hips will initiate the turn of the bars in the opposite direction (Think stabilising a Kayak)  much the same but to a lesser degree (i'll need to try it out as grhamm suggests) but i doubt it could ever be as effective as pushing the bars & theres another interesting post on the site entitled 'why dont police riders hang off'' which also explains the bigger picture regarding body movement.

I like your comment about the bars being rests for the hands as what i've found so far is that holding on too tight to the grips whilst cornering like you say isnt good & hampers progress & stops the bike going where it wants to go.a looser grip and allowing a bit of 'wobble' so to speak & allowing the tyres to track naturally over the surface imperfections is working much better for me.

Posture wise, as you say, trying to loosen up also helps & i do now complete a few weaves back & forth once i'm out of the village (only Fazer in the village :lol ) just to remind me how light the bike is as there's a tendency after hauling it from the shed & pushing it round the front to think it is still a heavy lump & it really isnt once you get going.
I do find this also reminds me of how quick the bike will turn in before i get to the first corner & therefore the first corner is usually done correctly & my confidence isnt dented before im even started on the ride.

I have a video of me riding last year before i'd sussed counter steering in my mind & my posture was very upright, not ideal i can't deny & partly due to me trying to save my old back injury but actually i was cornering pretty well with no hip or body twisting so was obviously counter steering in practice.

Again on my Kayak (sorry  :rolleyes ) i find that keeping loose allows me to go through choppy water much easier but i can still be upright whilst being loose.

One last thing that i've finally relented to which i think is related to counter steer is leaning over the tank.
I always thought it was another one of those Moto GP copycat moves & wasnt particularly bothered about wind blast unless doing high speed straight lining so i chose not to do it, certainly not for cornering.

Much to my surprise then on my last run when i tried it.The difference was quite dramatic & i was straight on the phone to my old man to discuss why it made such a difference.

So what we hypothesised in the end was that it was maybe to do with lowering the weight & centre of gravity bla bla bla which i didnt totally think was responsible but then it clicked...whilst hunkered over i was more in line with the bars instead of being above them.
This meant that when i counter steered round a corner all of the effort was going out forwards on the bars.When i am upright most of the weight is transferred downwards with the remainder going forwards.

In a nutshell, leaning over the tank made it easier to counter steer with the bars, i wasnt moving my body around all that much.My arms were also more bent & it was easier to keep a loose grip whilst counter steering.

can't wait to finish these shifts on Sunday & get out & test out my theory again, right or wrong it'll be fun trying. 8)

[simonm]

[quote author=Razgruff link=topic=7544.msg73516#msg73516 date=1367617788]To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.
[/quote]

I thought the same re trolling but I may have said the same thing until I watched twist of the wrist.  Keith Code may be in the church of scientology but he really knows his motorbiking.  His history on Wikipedia is interesting too.

The police riders handbook to better motorcycling is also good but a video paints a thousand words and totw is plain awesome in spite of the acting which is hilarious.

[Dead Eye]

[quote author=Razgruff link=topic=7544.msg73516#msg73516 date=1367617788]
I think that Counter steering gets explained wrong which confuses people, this pushing bars thing is wrong, the bars are somewhere to rest you hands,
and stop them flapping about in the wind 

I always understood countersteering as something you did in a car, when you flick the steering wheel the wrong way to kick the arse out to start what they call drifting now. :rolleyes

To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right.
One goes down giving the impression of being pushed because your elbow straightens and the other comes up giving the impression of being pulled because that elbow bends more.
I've followed a couple of people recently, I don't know if they are new bikers or fairweathers that haven't been out for a while, but you can see the stiffness in there bodies.
That tight neck raised shoulders. rod like back no flexablity in the body. if that did a bit of Weaving like GP racers do to warm their tyres up it would help them to loosen up the body and and get the feel for the bikes abilities again.

One last thing that i've finally relented to which i think is related to counter steer is leaning over the tank.
I always thought it was another one of those Moto GP copycat moves & wasnt particularly bothered about wind blast unless doing high speed straight lining so i chose not to do it, certainly not for cornering.

Much to my surprise then on my last run when i tried it.The difference was quite dramatic & i was straight on the phone to my old man to discuss why it made such a difference.

So what we hypothesised in the end was that it was maybe to do with lowering the weight & centre of gravity bla bla bla which i didnt totally think was responsible but then it clicked...whilst hunkered over i was more in line with the bars instead of being above them.
This meant that when i counter steered round a corner all of the effort was going out forwards on the bars.When i am upright most of the weight is transferred downwards with the remainder going forwards.

In a nutshell, leaning over the tank made it easier to counter steer with the bars, i wasnt moving my body around all that much.My arms were also more bent & it was easier to keep a loose grip whilst counter steering.
[/quote]

This point is also highlighted in TotW - they go over the fact that sports bikes cause you to posture so that your forearms are parallel to the road which allows all of your input to be fully translated in to the handlebars for easy control

[Razgruff]

ME Troll  :eek Never  :rollin

Just goes to prove my point about hard to explain,
Admittedly the handle bars rest thing may have been a little to glib. :pc
When I first saw Counter Steering mentioned on here I envisioned Speedway style cornering, I just couldn't get my head around this pushing the bars opposite direction thing as it always gets explained. so I wandered off and did some research. :book

http://www.tonyfoale.com/

Tony Foales explanation was the one I found the best and he calls it Counter weighting.

People will instinctively move their bodies & twist their hips & to some extent this will assist with cornering but the majority of the work is done with the Bars & moving the body actually only improves the push on the bars.

This is true but people do not realise this. Tony explains this well, I don't know what the CBT is like now I did mine over 25 years ago, but remember when you had to salon thought the cones this is where riders should be picking the the idea and feel for countersteering I was taught by a Police rider all those years ago on the old BMF rider training scene and it was only years later after reading the Police Riders handbook that I realised that I had been taught a lot of what was in the book from day one of my training Couple of hours on a Weds evening and Sunday mornings.

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.

At what speeds ? and do I shift my weight or do I read this literally and just push the bars without shifting weight ? :deal

Like I said in my original reply, this explanation doesn't work for me, read what you have written literally and try it.
I prefer to say do some Wits/GP Racer weaving. then people don't focus on the one aspect of the steering process, and just try to weave and start to countersteer as they would naturally.

Trying to explain riding a bike by the written word is like trying to explain walking or swimming by the written word it, is very complicated.
Try putting one foot in front of the other to walk, without shifhting weight bending knees and ankles and moving your arms, yet everybody says walking is easy.
You just put one foot in front of the other ??????

[VNA]

You can demonstrate it with a stationary bicycle.  Sit the bike straight up, turn the front wheel, now guess which way it will fall.  Then imagine it at speed.  In fact it works on a bicycle at speed, or at load speed in an exaggerated fashion - say when avoiding somebody who has just opened their car door on you.

In fact after realising in the early 90's how to make my bike turn direction, I also realised that I had first read about this and practised it, after reading the old cyclists bible Richard's Bicycle book in which he describes counter steering as a method to avoid collisions.

As for thinking about it, you do that for a few weeks maybe, then it's second nature.  You can push or pull, or both. 

The old way of making a bike turn is still counter steering.  They told you to lean, so what happens, you put more weight on one bar than the other.  Sit up, and what are you doing, putting weight on the other bar and the bike magically sits up.

Counter steering is the only way to make your bike turn direction.

[peterjca]

[quote author=Razgruff link=topic=7544.msg73516#msg73516 date=1367617788]To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.
[/quote]

Indeed. The TotW II DVD demonstrates this admirably for those that need to see the concept in action. (The DVD is £6.05 on amazon at the mo.)

[Grahamm]

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.

At what speeds ? and do I shift my weight or do I read this literally and just push the bars without shifting weight ? :deal

Speed: Anything over a walking pace. And yes, just a little push on the bar, fingertip pressure, no weight shift.

I think in the Twist of the Wrist video (or another one like it) there's a demo of a guy riding along, standing on the pegs and putting *all* of his weight on one side for virtually no result. He then does the same with just a little push on the bar: Big result!

Also check out Full Control for a comprehensive discussion of the subject.

[VNA]

I did mine over 25 years ago, but remember when you had to salon thought the cones this is where riders should be picking the the idea and feel for countersteering

When riding at low speed, like manoeuvring through the cones on the old part 1, you keep the bike upright and turn the wheel in the direction in which you wish to go.  This is low speed control. 

At what speed do you start to cunter steer?  I dunno, one doesn't think about positioning your bike when you are riding it, not once you have the hang of it anyway.  But 15mph, 20mph maybe 25mph, by that time you need to counter steer.
And once at speed, with all the gyroscopic forces involved, the only way you will make the bike turn is to kick that front wheel out a wee bit.  Everything else you try is, unless you take your hands of the bars, still counter steering.  And I think we all know that if you try to get about without placing your hands on the bars you probably won't get far.
It's frustrating that when there is only one way to make a bike change direction, only one method of being in control, that it is still seen as something worthy of debate or even controversial to some.
Any of the young lads, or now young lassies at work getting into bikes, it's something I always mention to em.  Yup it sounds weird when you have just started riding, but I suggest they try what Grahamm has suggested.  It's easy, and of course you were doing it anyway.

[simonm]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=7544.msg73530#msg73530 date=1367627149]
[quote author=Razgruff link=topic=7544.msg73516#msg73516 date=1367617788]To me what they call countersteering on bikes these days, is counter weighing, steering the bike with your waist and hips, the bars aren't pushed left or right

Presuming you aren't just trolling, next time you're out, find a long straight bit of road (motorway, dual carriageway etc) where there isn't much traffic about and with as little as possible pressure from your hands on the bars, try the following:

1) Try steering the bike with your waist and hips.

2) Gently push on the right bar and see which way the bike goes, then try with the left.

See what happens.
[/quote]

Indeed. The TotW II DVD demonstrates this admirably for those that need to see the concept in action. (The DVD is £6.05 on amazon at the mo.)
[/quote]

I don't think that he's getting the message about watching twist of the wrist.

Here is a link for him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVWNinsm...ata_player

Razgruff, please watch the link.  It will enlighten you.

[Razgruff]

Go read the Tony Foales explanation and you may see what I'm trying to say very badly  :z

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm


[size=1.35em]Equilibrium is achieved when the angle of lean is such as to balance the two opposing moments, the one due to centrifugal force acting outward, and the other to gravitational force acting downward (both acting through the C.of G.). The actual angle, which depends on the radius of the turn and the speed of the machine, is that at which the resultant of the two forces passes through a line joining the front and rear tyre contact patches. This is the steady-state roll axis. But how do we actually initiate the turn - do we lean or do we steer first? Let's see what happens with each method. If we turn the handle-bar in the direction in which we want to go, both centrifugal force and the front wheel precession would cause the bike to topple outward, and that leads to gravel rash. But if we momentarily try to turn the bar quickly in the opposite direction, (sometimes known as counter steering) then these two forces will combine to bank the machine to the correct side. Gravity will then augment the banking effect and this, in turn, will give rise to gyroscopic forces helping to steer the front wheel into the curve, whereupon the processes for maintaining balance as described above take over and keep the bike on our chosen path. This is all very well, I hear you say, but if this is the way to corner, how come we can steer a bike no-hands. Well, it certainly is possible to do so, but only with a lot more difficulty. Precise control and tight turns are difficult to accomplish without handle-bar manipulation. Just try it! Let's consider the no-hands situation. As we saw earlier, simply banking the bike steers the front wheel in the correct direction automatically, through precession. But how do we make the bike lean in the first place, what do we have to push against? There is nothing solid to push against and so the only way to apply bank (without the facility of steering), is to push against the machine with the inertia of our own body. This means in practice, that in order to lean the bike to the right, we must initially move our body to the left. So now we have two possible methods of initiating a turn, and it is interesting to note that in both of them (banking and reverse handle-bar torque) our physical effort is in the opposite sense to that which might be thought natural, but when learning we adapt quickly and the required action becomes subconsciously automatic. It is these reverse actions that require us to learn to ride in the first place, when learning most of us wobble about out of control until our brain latches on to the fact that counter-steering and counter-leaning is the way to do it. Once the brain has switched into reverse gear, it becomes instinctive and is usually with us for life, and we could return to riding after a long layoff with no need to relearn the art of balancing or steering. So which of these two possible methods of initiating a turn do we use in practice? We probably subconsciously combine both methods, and the pressure on the inner handgrip is partly forward (counter-steering) and partly downward (banking). Remember though, that the actual counter-steering movement is very small, since gyroscopic precession depends for its strength on the speed of movement not on the amount of movement. If you still don't believe that steering to the opposite side works, then next time you are out riding, try jerking the bars quickly to one side, and see what happens. Leave yourself plenty of road if your reactions are a bit on the slow side. Do this at about 40 mph., and don't blame me if you fall off. The relative proportions with which we combine the two methods depend partly on riding style but also on speed and machine characteristics. For example, a heavy machine with light wheels at low speeds demands a different technique from that applicable to a light weight machine with heavy wheels at high speeds, and hence the two machines will have a different feel. But humans adapt quickly and the correct technique soon becomes second nature. It may seem strange that in the above discussion no mention has been made of such important parameters as, steering geometry, wheel and tyre size, wheelbase, frame stiffness and so on. This is simply because, balance and the ability to start and maintain a turn can be achieved within a wide range of these parameters. That is not to say that these factors are unimportant. We shall now look a little more closely at one of the more important parameters that come under the heading of steering geometry, i.e. TRAIL. Consider first fig.4, which shows the basics of steering geometry. [/size]

[Punkstig]

Returning to the video in this post-
It appears that he either scrapes his toe or footpeg part way round, he obviously has little experience of this happening so instant reaction is to pick the bike up, this puts him into the trajectory of the cyclists, unfortunately what's probably going through his head is
Shit shit shit I'm heading right for them
Shit shit shit I can't brake cause I'll end up off the road and heading straight up that steep bank
Shit shit shit I can't corner any further to avoid them cause in my mind I'm at the limit and I'll be scraping the pegs again and crash
Shit shit shit not enough time to think of other options
Fuck it lets have em all!


Lack of experience,
That's my two pence anywho!