Hi-vis law in France and Ireland passed, who's next??

[Phil TK]

The point is surely none of us are convinced high viz will make any diffrence to our safety.

I think it does make a difference, at this time of year certainly.

[pitternator]

Phil
Only if the feckers are looking. I have been involved in several smidsy accidents...especially older drivers with poor vision.In those cases its irrelevant whether you have lights on or off, hi viz or not ...the distracted or impaired drivers still pull out. This high profile case of the elderly driver knocking down a girl on the path is typical of such.Let alon epeopl etexting whil edriving , taking eyes off road while chatting , turning round to sort kids out etc. All oblivious to the effects of their negligence.Whats needed is better driver awareness not us having to look like lighthouses in the dark !

I dont think its harmful to wear hi vis, except it might give the rider a sense of confidance that other drivers have seen you , and then not ride defensively.Yes by all means take steps to make oneself visible...but ultimately it is not  a guarentee they have seen you.Hence why I am concerned about implementing it like this.

What next ?..rotating lights on our heads ! 

[wraith600]

high vis is bollocks and will never replace good road skills .


didnot help this copper either


heavy police motorbike accident on camera

[locksmith]

Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

[Phil TK]

I dont think its harmful to wear hi vis, except it might give the rider a sense of confidance that other drivers have seen you , and then not ride defensively

I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to stop riding defensively because they decided to wear hi-viz 'instead'.
 

[Pat]

Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/fra...-get-done/

[locksmith]

[quote author=pitternator link=topic=1326.msg10127#msg10127 date=1326872667]

I dont think its harmful to wear hi vis, except it might give the rider a sense of confidance that other drivers have seen you , and then not ride defensively

I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to stop riding defensively because they decided to wear hi-viz 'instead'.

[/quote]

What, like the poor bloke in the video?

[bigralphie]

No but you "might" think well he must see me like the copper in the vid

[Phil TK]

No but you "might" think well he must see me like the copper in the vid

We all think that to some extent though, such as every time we stop to turn right for example, wearing hi vis or not.

[pilgrim]

Right
Ranty time!
Prologue. I ride with my headlights on ALL the time, day, night, spring summer autumn winter, always have , always will, ok?
1. Had three serious impacts with other vehicles in 27 years of riding. None of them my fault, due to other peoples stupidity.
All happened when I was a DR wearing hi-viz with the company logo etc.
2. Nearly got written off by some twat coming round a corner on the wrong side of the road about 20 years ago. Hi-viz would have been pointless
seeing as how it was a blind bend. It was my Dad. :eek
3. Saw a crash 3 weeks ago not 50 yards from my house when one guy turned right across the path of an oncoming vehicle in broad daylight.
Neither car was wearing Hi-viz. Could this be a contributing factor?
4. Ever seen a Ford Capri trying to get on a bus? A big orange and white double decker bus? No? Cant get more Hi-viz than that.
5. Imagine the manufacturers of hi-viz stuff in France rubbing their hands with glee as they double the price of everything!!
6. Last mishap I had involved some silly bint reversing into me in her Toyota Avensis. Poor lass was mortified because;
a. Her husband was a biker.
b. She admitted she didnt even look, because she didnt ' think' anyone was behind her.
7. Russell.
Russell got knocked of his bike a number of years ago on the A6 in Stockport by a woman pulling out of a side street.
Madam would not admit liability even though it was clearly her fault.
Why?
Because he was on a motorbike and she was in a car and motorbikes are supposed to give way to cars.
The judge was not amused and shreded her licence on the spot
8. Was once asked when I was a courier by some silly sod who had just got out of a big flash car at the company I was collecting from
how long it would take me to get to Birmingham from Manchester. When I said it didnt take long on the M6, matey boy said;
Oh, I didnt know motorbikes were allowed on the motorway!
Very observant :eek
Bottom line is, you could be riding around inside the planet Venus, but the morons will still get you, simply because they just dont look!!
Sorry about the big rant, but it gets on my tits that we are to blame for other peoples shit driving,
and I will consider hi-viz clothing, maybe, the moment that all drivers are forced to put their FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON at night
instead driving around with 2 glow worms in dirty jam jars to illuminate their way.
Even when its pissing down.........
Double standards or what?
..............9.........10.

[Slaninar]

Right
Ranty time!
Prologue. I ride with my headlights on ALL the time, day, night, spring summer autumn winter, always have , always will, ok?
1. Had three serious impacts with other vehicles in 27 years of riding. None of them my fault, due to other peoples stupidity.
All happened when I was a DR wearing hi-viz with the company logo etc.
2. Nearly got written off by some twat coming round a corner on the wrong side of the road about 20 years ago. Hi-viz would have been pointless
seeing as how it was a blind bend. It was my Dad. :eek
3. Saw a crash 3 weeks ago not 50 yards from my house when one guy turned right across the path of an oncoming vehicle in broad daylight.
Neither car was wearing Hi-viz. Could this be a contributing factor?
4. Ever seen a Ford Capri trying to get on a bus? A big orange and white double decker bus? No? Cant get more Hi-viz than that.
5. Imagine the manufacturers of hi-viz stuff in France rubbing their hands with glee as they double the price of everything!!
6. Last mishap I had involved some silly bint reversing into me in her Toyota Avensis. Poor lass was mortified because;
a. Her husband was a biker.
b. She admitted she didnt even look, because she didnt ' think' anyone was behind her.
7. Russell.
Russell got knocked of his bike a number of years ago on the A6 in Stockport by a woman pulling out of a side street.
Madam would not admit liability even though it was clearly her fault.
Why?
Because he was on a motorbike and she was in a car and motorbikes are supposed to give way to cars.
The judge was not amused and shreded her licence on the spot
8. Was once asked when I was a courier by some silly sod who had just got out of a big flash car at the company I was collecting from
how long it would take me to get to Birmingham from Manchester. When I said it didnt take long on the M6, matey boy said;
Oh, I didnt know motorbikes were allowed on the motorway!
Very observant :eek
Bottom line is, you could be riding around inside the planet Venus, but the morons will still get you, simply because they just dont look!!
Sorry about the big rant, but it gets on my tits that we are to blame for other peoples shit driving,
and I will consider hi-viz clothing, maybe, the moment that all drivers are forced to put their FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON at night
instead driving around with 2 glow worms in dirty jam jars to illuminate their way.
Even when its pissing down.........
Double standards or what?
..............9.........10.

Your experience is very small to be statistically accurate. If you flip a coin ten times and get 7 tails, it doesn't mean that the head side is heavier, just means you haven't flipped it enough times. Do you really believe that hi-vis jacket is not more visible? Come on?

I know that when riding in the night and mist, I see Hi-vis jackets a lot (A LOT) sooner than my lights actually illuminate the wearer. If I see a cyclists blinking read light at 200 meters, my dip lights illuminate him at 150 meters and hi-vis jacket is lit the first at some 300 - 400 meters no problem. Also in day light, I see a cyclist with hi-vis jacket - it somehow sticks out from the rest of the vehicles.

There is no doubt hi-vis is safer. It is just a matter of whether it should be obligatory. Because once you go that line, that state is too concerned about safety, that would mean:
- no motorcycle riding at all
- no playing football because you could get injured and miss work, just yoga and jogging
- no loud music because it damages ears
- no smoking in pubs... or is that already enforced in the EU?

etc. Making idiots out of people!

See, even the spell checker doesn't recognize "hi-viz"! 

[locksmith]

[quote author=locksmith link=topic=1326.msg10147#msg10147 date=1326885941]
Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/fra...-get-done/


[/quote]

125cm 2  of reflective material. So is it like the armband in the picture?
Whats the point of that?

[Chillum]

I haven't been able to find the actual definition of how it should be displayed either. All I can find is a reference to 'between the waist and neck' or something.

I'm thinking cummerbund here, or perhaps a hi-viz t-shirt and riding with your leathers open during the protest.

[Ghoti]

Problem with claiming hi-viz is safer is that you will never know how many car drives have NOT pulled out in front of you because they have seen your hi-viz!  If you are wearing hi-viz and 1 car pulls out on you, who is to say that 3 cars would not have pulled out on you if you had not been wearing it.

There is research (cannot find it now, but it was by a Uni in the States, Brown Uni I believe) that shows that there is a correlation to 'perceived' protection and faster driving.  Put a bloke in a Mankini on a bike and he'll only ride fast enough to get away from his laughing mates.  Dress same bloke in leathers, helmet, put foam on the outside of corners etc etc and he will ride faster. [the actual study was based on cars, but the pirnciple is the same].  Guess this could be taken to a rider in hi-viz will think he will be seen so will not react to the possibility of a car pulling out as readily (?).

I wear a hi-viz jacket in the winter for reasons that include the fact that the hi-viz can be cleaned/replaced a lot easier than an expensive set of textiles when it gets dirty.  I don't wear it all year round and would object to being forced to wear one.

Finally, all that I have typed above (and most of the other replies for/against) do not seem to take into account that the French law is for REFELCTIVE clothing - not hi-viz.  IMHO, reflective clothing does less than nothing during the day and lights (which most of us use at night) are better when it is dark.  As refelective clothing only reflects lights, if a car pulling out from a side road there may be no light source for the reflective bit to reflect, so will not work.

[b3tarev3]

[quote author=Pat link=topic=1326.msg10157#msg10157 date=1326890587]
[quote author=locksmith link=topic=1326.msg10147#msg10147 date=1326885941]
Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/fra...-get-done/


[/quote]

125cm 2  of reflective material. So is it like the armband in the picture?
Whats the point of that?
[/quote]

125cm in Europe...... you can guarantee that our European pupptet masters will insist on UK motorcyclists being fully dipped in day-glo paint! mash

[pitternator]

In a nutshell, if we really did know that by wearing hi viz, we definitely will be safer ...maybe we all would wear it. But as this is not the case...hence why we argue against it.

I still think if penalties were much higher for causing death or injury by careless driving was far higher, maybe the dopey twats would start paying attention and look properly.Its incredulous that given how crowded our roads are, how easy it is to do such things and still be back driving  with little penalty.

Being the driver of  a large white( highly visible) van, its still amazing how many car drivers pull out on me ...and on a regular ( statistically relevant) basis.Talking of which for the forum  statisticians out there...its not really  about percentages. It only takes  a fraction of  a percent to kill a biker !... and  , given the known inaccuracy of statistical predictions..they are really horseshit  !

If indeed all this is really inevitable, maybe time to start designing  hi viz biker gear which does have mass appeal- theres a new business venture for someone...

[locksmith]

You could also look at it, that on the other hand it's one more line of defence for us that may just stop us being killed. (although you would never know if it ever happened that a driver just saw the hi'viz and nothing else).

[Sunny Intervals]

me Here's my tuppence worth

If My old works van can get hit when it is bright yellow with chevrons on the tail board, hazard lights flashing, and yellow beacons flashin on the roof, 1/2 mile of warning signs warning people I'm there and the cones laid out on the road behind me to create the required safety zone.
I fail to see what good a hi viz jacket does.

They are some common places now that they have become a sort of background noise of colour.

Has for people feeling safe when wearing one and not riding so defensively I can see how this would happen.
It would become the same as the full body armour warriors who belive they are invincable.

It.s the old risk compensation arguement.

Bet nobody on here would do bends as fast in shorts and T-Shirt as they do in full leathers

[camlyd]

Does anyone know if being a Biker was or is llikely to be recognised as a religion, I remember there is some right if a certain number of people declared this in the last census. If so, perhaps we could all claim in the name of religious persecution and get loads of cash for being upset by the very thought of the state inflicting their anti biking views on us.  :wall

[Slaninar]

Does anyone know if being a Biker was or is llikely to be recognised as a religion, I remember there is some right if a certain number of people declared this in the last census. If so, perhaps we could all claim in the name of religious persecution and get loads of cash for being upset by the very thought of the state inflicting their anti biking views on us.  :wall

Yes, officer. Speed limit does conflict with my religious beliefs. Yes. Peace be with you officer.