Earnings

[Doddsie]

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[slimwilly]

But my question is a "looking forward one"  , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?




Is there a country you could propose as a role model?

[lew600fazer]

Perhaps Sweden, Norway might come closest for giving the under priviledged a helping hand. But to be honest I for one would not be prepared to see 60% of my earnings going in taxes.
The fact that we have lost a lot of our manufactuering base over the years is a disgrace. Okay we are clawing some back as in Car plants etc!but terms and conditions in these industries are basically very much dictated by the employer. They have the working man by the balls, as in if you do not like it we will just put the plant in a country were they will work for that money.
Now I will say this though that the British car industry work force did not do itself any favours, industrial relations were a joke. They made shite cars and went on strike at the drop of a hat. The UK used to be viewed as the sick man of europe as far as industrial relations, quality control etc!
Thankfully we seemed to have turned that around.
We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society. Look at the mess of the cities crap all over the place brown field sites etc! We have trouble with kids running wild (not all) one of the reasons is bordom. Can those on welfare not assist in the construction/maintainence of play grounds / sports fields / BMX type cycle parks. Bascically help improve some of the infrastructure within their communities.
Please do not bang on about slave labour, maybe just some folk may gain a bit of satisfaction and self respect if they were given opprtunities like that.
Concerning the over crowding in prisons and cons being banged up for 23 hours aday in some cases, those who are in for non vilolent crimes get them out on the streets , always plenty of litter to be picked up, for every day they do that they get a wee bit of their sentence.
I am sure many will not agree with me but welfare is a life line not a life style.

It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.
Personally I would abolish parliment in its present form , the house of lords whats that all about?

Me I would hand the running of the country over to the CBI & The Unions at least both those parties would have vested interest in who they represent. Also people within those organised groups would have had hands on life & work expeirences unlike our so called professional politicians.

While the EU maintains an open border policy those on the lower end of the wage scale will stay poorly paid. I am a firm believer in the EU but as regards this the freedom of movement between countries this should only allowed on the basis of if there is work available and a local national cannot be found to fill that position.
This business of an EU citizen turning up at the DHSS or job centre saying I am looking for work should be taken into custody and then sent back to were they came from, same thing if they had a job and lose it , sent back.
NO FOREIGN NATIONAL should be allowed to become an economic immigrant. Countries like Italy, Spain and France should be given more assistance in patrolling and preventing the Hordes crossing the Medi from North Africa, I am not talking money but resources as in Naval patrols, sorry but if they come across boats loaded with people they should taken in tow and returned to were they came from.
Just my thoughts I am sure some will view it as complete rubbish but!!!!!!!!!!!

[VNA]

But my question is a "looking forward one"  , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?

Well I voted YES in the referendum.  Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.

The UK is no longer the sick man of Europe, it's Europe's joke.  They laugh at us, we pay our taxes for their companies, many of them state owned to come in and provide our utilities, infrastructure and social services.  'We' in the United Kingdom are playing suicide economics.

And this Scotland and the UK, once the engineering, technological and medical leaders of the whole world.

We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society.

Lew millions of able bodied persons are claiming benefits , they have to to survive, it is as you say a life line.  But you know what these people do?  They work for the big filthy rich foreign state and privately owned companies providing all that I outlined above.

Do you know who the real benefits cheats are, the real spongers, where the money is really going.  These are not social benefits, this is corporate welfare, socialism for the rich.

It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.

Because 'you' vote for fools, and 'you' swallow the lies the fools peddle.  They are 'your' fools.  As I say people get the government they deserve.

I'm not some stupid rose tinted kilt wearing Scotland is better than the rest of the UK kind of nationalist.  I've thirsted for an independent Scotland for last 15 years or so because the Tories then New Labour have put the UK on the road to hell.  Nobody in Scotland wants the Tories, people are waking up and now the Labour party is in freefall like the Tories were 20 years ago.  Another we push and we are out, bye UK.  It's time to say no more, why should we be dragged down by an England determined turn the clock back to Victorian times.

[Doddsie]

But my question is a "looking forward one"  , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?

Well I voted YES in the referendum.  Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.

I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????

[VNA]

I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????

Well firstly, it is entirely up to the people of Scotland.

Secondly when you hold a referendum you expect people to stick to the rules.  The NO campaign broke The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages of the campaign with the introduction of 'The Vow'. 

So many of those who voted in the postal ballot voted in a different referendum to those who voted on the day at the polling station (The Vow being introduced after the postal ballot)

And finally, 'The Vow' that was introduced against the rules (please note that the NO rejected a third option on the ballot paper) turned out not to be worth the paper that it was not written on in any case.

Now in that referendum, despite the full might of the Scottish and British media (only one small paper The Sunday Herald supported independence), the full might of the establishment, all the Westminster Parties and The Westminster Elite - despite all that - 45% of people in Scotland did not buy it and they didn't do as they were told.  That's remarkable.

What have we in Scotland got to vote for come the General Election?  The Good old Tories, The New Tory Party, The Third Rate Tory Party or Nigel's Ultra Fascist Tory Party.

With Jim Murphy (A Tory) about to be elected leader of The Labour Party in Scotland (a man with no seat in our parliament), I can't help thinking it's wipe out time for Labour at the general election.  Scots vote one way in a general election, then vote the opposite way in a Scottish Election.  I don't think that will happen this time.

The way things are playing out politically at the moment, YES! I think the people will demand another referendum. 

[lew600fazer]

VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.
Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.

Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.

[VNA]

VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.

And your point is caller?

Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.

Yes we can!  And yes we will!  See my answer above - post no. 65 - I've already answered that question.

Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.

If think if you look at the way Scotland is being run within it's limited powers, well it's being much better run than the rest of the UK.  However we don't have control of our economy - so we effectively run on a fixed budget.

Lew the things I've already pointed out that are wrong are the things I'd most like to fix.  What is it that you don't get?  It's time to stop corporate welfare, it's time to put a stop to socialism for the rich, it's time to stop robbing the poor to pay the rich.

Communism?  I don't think any country has ever tried it.  Or those that have, and those that might be minded to, will/would be destroyed.

What we do know for sure Lew is that Neo Liberal Capitalism does not work.  And we also know is that it is also destroying our environment.

[lew600fazer]

VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.
Capitalism is not the answer and neither is socailism. I don't pretend to know the answer. I do know this though what I have earned and saved over the years belongs to me and not the state. I took Norman Tebbits advice and got on my bike.
I am fortunate enough to be comfortabley off. What I have I worked for, no last final salary though and no economy or employer can afford that.
Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.

[VNA]

VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.

How do you figure that?  Lets take an example of a prime tax dodger, and incidentally a company that pays large numbers of it's staff at or around the minimum wage;

Starbucks;

So we make Starbucks pay the corporation tax that's it's been dodging, on top of that we make em pay a living wage so that tax payers don't have to top up the pay of their staff.

What is wrong with that Lew?  You know if Joe Blogs with his one wee coffee shop down the high street has to pay all his taxes, why should the massively profitable Starbucks not have to, and indeed be given a unfair competitive advantage?

And if Starbucks doesn't like having to play fair?  Well yeah sure, they can foc off and move out - who gives a foc.  Cos you know what will happen.  Where there is a demand, there is a business and money to be made.  Well I doubt for one minute that Starbucks would move out, but it's no loss if they do.

And please explain to me Lew why you think we should subsidise the massive Starbucks and their super rich shareholders?  Why should little people like us give them money, money for nothing, when we haven't even as much as bought a foccing coffee off them?

Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.

Lew making the same dodgy statement repeatedly will not make it any more relevant than the first time you stated it.

And I answered it comprehensively in post 65. 

In short YES WE CAN!  YES WE WILL!

[BIG MAC]

Gawd..VNA is making sense in places...feck how this place has changed. Here's the maths...The UK is up to it's axles in debt and the present Govt have done feck all to improve the situation..what they have done is stem the tide of 'lack of confidence' which would have sunk us..
Forgetting philanthropy for a moment an Independent Scotland would have put Cameron and co on their arses back behind square one...they have probably done what was right for the UK.
Being harsh however - Scotland has assets far in excess of it's own costs and has been propping up Middle Englanders for years the 55% were enough to kick off round two of what ios being called 'The neverendum' and the tax powers granted by the Tories are simply a device to start chipping away at the block grant and forcing a socialist Scotland to tax it's wealthy ...The Tories don't actually give a shit about Scottish Tories as there aren't enough of them to make much of a difference. Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.

[lew600fazer]

Now why did it not surprise me that Starbucks would be the one that came up. All they are doing is using the rules as they are written. But at least this government has obviously had a word.

Starbucks expects to pay corporation tax on profits in the UK after electing to move its European headquarters from the Netherlands to London.  The coffee chain, which has been at the centre of a blazing row over tax avoidance by multinational corporations, has announced plans to move senior management to its UK offices, as well as making Britain the base of its intellectual property rights.  This means that the sizeable royalty payments Starbucks currently siphons to its Dutch base from the company’s divisions across Europe, including the UK, will instead by transferred to Britain. It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.

I agree it is not right that bean counters can manipulate how and when they decide they make a profit or loss. All companies do that.
I do not understand accounting, but lets say BP expect to make £1 billion profit for 2014 but they actually only make £750 million, so really as far as they are concerned they have a short fall of £250 million. I am sure some bean counter will turn that around so they can say they actually made a loss of £250 million.
On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote. if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years. Are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland ?I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to extingiush it. Do not be in a rush to go down that road. Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we have for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked off good time in 1967.
When the result was announced in the recent vote, there where scenes between the yes/no crowds nearly becoming violent. It could only take one such incident to kick it off.
In N Ireland we had a a certain so called man of God gathered a crowd of so called loyalists and marched them up the lower Falls road and removed a Republican Flag from offices of a political party. That was all that was required to start the bomb ticking.
The result of that and a lack of discipline in controlling troops on the streets of Londonderry in 1972 lead to over 3500 deaths. The % of the population killed or injured equates to 2%.
Be under no illusion the same thing could happen in Scotland , just remember it will not be like an OLD FIRM game that everyone will go home after 90 minutes.

[VNA]

Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.

How about the SNP sweep to power at Westminster with over 40 seats.  Labour is slain in Scotland - dead in the water.
It's a hung parliament again, so Labour do a deal with the SNP to prevent the nightmare scenario of a Tory UKIP coalition.

So an SNP Labour coalition, dippy Ed Miliband as PM with Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom! :lol

[VNA]

It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote, if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years

We were not allowed to hold a referendum in any case.  They can make whatever law they want, we don't care, we can do what we would have done had Westminster not granted us permission under The Edinburgh Agreement (you know that document that they then themselves ignored) and that is hold a consultative referendum. 

I mean bring it on.  Can you imagine the reaction to such a vote in Scotland?

And if it could be outlawed..........  Then having a majority at Westminster and then securing an impossible majority for the second time in a row at Holyrood we could declare Scotland Independent by Mandate - no referendum required thank you very much!

are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland.I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to put it out. Do not be in a rush to go down that road, Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we did for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked of good time in 1967.

No I really can't see it.  There is absolutely nothing to suggest that that could happen.  And you actually have it the wrong way round.  When the trouble came during the referendum it came from the loyalists.

[lew600fazer]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??

[nick crisp]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??

God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.

VNA, your faith in human nature is touching, but such trust has been proved misplaced so many countless times in history, alas.

[VNA]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??

God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.

whooa!  Look the History of Scotland and Ireland and their respective relationships with England over the past 300 or so years is markedly different.

Nor do those in Scotland calling for Independence in Scotland feel that we are discriminated against within Scotland, or that our human rights are being violated, perhaps suffering at the hands of bigots and being denied our democratic rights.

Note that the YES! campaign, which is ongoing, is a fully inclusive campaign, and it is a campaign for social justice in Scotland.  People across Scotland, across all sections of society, irrespective of whether you are black or white, catholic or protestant, Christian, Muslim or Atheist, Scottish, English, Polish or whatever, and right across the political spectrum have come together to fight for social justice.  We recognise that in order to stop the corporate welfare state, that in order to have an equalitarian society, in order to protect our NHS from privatisation etc, then we have to become an Independent country.

If you are suggesting that we, as a peaceful and democratic,  inclusive and equalitarian campaign should shut the foc up because others, who do not believe in the democratic process, may threaten us with violence and disruption, then I think I can answer that with one word, and that word is NO!

The YES! campaign is not over, the biggest political movement that this wee country has ever witnessed in modern times carries on.  There is a general election in May you know.

[BIG MAC]

One of the best things about both the YES and NO campaigns is that by and large sectarianism was frowned up...yes there were fannies...there always will be. Cards on the table I was born to be a Scottish Catholic...I  went to a Jesuit school and hated every fecking minute of it...I then went to a local comp...had my share of rough and tumble and ended up with many friends who happen to be non Catholic..I have always been a Celtic supporter but the basis for it was to be different in a school class full of blue noses. I will have banter with either but at the end of the day if you are my friend I will do what I can to help. I guess therein is the rub Scots aren't actually as Scottish as shortbread tins or bigoted string vest wearing Eldorado drinkers either. Many Scots by virtue of their superior education system are erudite and capable analysts of their political situation and options. My opinion is that 55% got it wrong and handed the initiative back but believe me when I say there always was a plan B and turning Westminster into the Caledonian club may be it.  Middle England will rightly get the hump and it will all be because Davos Dozey Cameron couldn't be arsed to speak to the Scottish grocer...So Osbourne has told England be prepared for swingeing cuts and you could have Scots MPs voting them in if it suits their agenda..CONservatives strike again. As for Labour-a- tory  they are toothless, leaderless and clueless

[lew600fazer]

VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign. If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.
The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread as in the number of dead and injured. It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.
Just keep it in mind , N Ireland certainly the Protestant side of it can trace its roots back to Scotland, as in Ulster Scots.

By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.

[VNA]

VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign.

This thread gets more bizarre by the post.

What is this pish?  Ideally I would be an Internationalist, I should ideally have nothing to do with creating more borders, but the reality is quite different.  The UK is going to the dogs, but we have in Scotland an opportunity to break with the corporate welfare state and the race to the bottom, which in turn can only be good for our brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK.

If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.

We have just been through a democratic process Lew, we almost did it, and probably would have made it home if it was not for Westminster tearing up The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages. 

How much trouble was there Lew?  A few hours of pissed up Loyalist Neds in George Square on the day of the result.  That was it.  Yup, not much else to report, umm nothing, nope, now't - zip.

The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread

It's a lot more complicated than that Lew, and as I already pointed out there is no parallel.  And have you forgotten that the paramilitaries tried to kick it all off over here in Scotland too?  But guess what they fell flat on their faces.

It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.

Yes and if there is a little trouble on our streets it will be our Police, our Army with our support recruited from our population that round up the pissed up neds.  You know Lew 45% of the police force voted YES! too. 

By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.

If people vote for Nigel Farage and UKIP in the upcoming General Election, don't be surprised if things turn nasty Lew.  But what do you think we should, bring an end to democracy, or set up a ruling committee to decide what bits of our country(s) process that we can decide on democratically?