Earnings

[maddog04]

VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of  trying to defeat us

as for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots

[VNA]

VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of  trying to defeat us

I take you are a fireman maddog.  But what you are talking about is essential safety cover and is done with the agreement of the trade unions - that is my understanding.  But yes the Tories will do everything and anything to defeat the working man.

a

s for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots

Absolutely.  I have no issue with those in the armed forces, yes many of them literally put their lives on the line and indeed some of them give their lives.  But you won't find the Thatchers, the Blairs and the Camerons of this world on the front line.  And we do shockingly little to help, that is those who need help whom I understand there are many, after they have left the army.

As for the middle east.... Well how about this, just a few weeks ago Prime Minister Hamad bin Jasim bin Jabir al-Thani of Qatar  was in London to meet David Cameron.  David Cameron, we are told, was politely asking him to stop funding ISIS.  Guess what - Qatar is one of 'our' priority arms markets. 

[noggythenog]

I personally feel that pay in the emergency services is just about right......slightly low but only because of recent erosion of pay, conditions and working practices.


Firefighters - you can live a decent life, have a half decent car and do something worthwhile......pay is ok but i think that the previous benefits kind of made up for that a little bit to make the whole package decent....because the benefits and perks have been chipped away at then it is no longer the case & i Reckon that the fire service has been losing quality guys to the likes of the oil industry......used to be run like the millitary and recruited lots from the millitary and as such i liken a good watch to the likes of a special forces platoon wherby you have lots of skilled guys with specialised expertise which can overcome different situations......instead of that type of recruitment then i would guess that you're far more likely to now have someone who went to college to study something tarty like "sports science" rather than someone who has real skills.......this will only get worse.......firefighters have been wrongly demonised by the Rich in order to take the flack away from themselves.....this is wrong......like VNA says the likes of Amazon are legally fleecing this country while we moan about firefighters going on strike being selfish. Ok i appreciate that there arent as many fires these days due to increased fire safety but the problem comes when there is a fire because the chances are it's gonna be a biggy and if you've spent the last ten years recruiting only those who will accept the crap conditions then dont be surprised when something goes pete tong that's what im saying......end of the day if im trapped in a fire i want the most switched on and job happy person coming to rescue me.




Paramedics - probably used to be a good job but again it is the conditions which have been chipped away so that they are permanently flat out and understaffed like the rest of the NHS.......paying them more wouldnt suddenly make them less stressed out but providing adequate levels of staff would improve their work....again all of the media portrayals of staff refusing to act because they're on their lunch break.....engineered by the head sheds to make us have a go at the staff when in reality it's gotta be in a bit of a shit state when things like that start happening and the shit has come from the top.


Police - seems to have resisted the most to at least keep hold of allot of the benefits that they have but by all means has turned into a glorified social working job really hasnt it....i wish they could just give folk a right shoeing but even that perk has gone now coz they get grassed up by their own probies :lol ....cant punch a smackheed coz thats against his rights and all that other good shit.....still seems a tidy job though and the pay is good but again all the paperwork and shit jobs and doing reports at home in your spare time or whatever...foc that.


So to summarise......all decently paid........if it was 20 years ago...........now a little bit shit because of the change in conditions......not necessarily the pay itself...all services are portrayed in a bad way by the media via the government via the rich......................who are a bunch o tossers.

[taylor]

good luck to them all if they earn loads of money, by whatever means, grab and take what you can , before someone else does, because they will. most people have the same choice of education as the next person.

[lew600fazer]

Same choice of education well it is supposed to be, in reality it is not.
The public service sectors have never been the best paid but do have a pension at the end off it, unlike many in the private sector.
When do the police go on full pension?School teachers? Nursing staff?
Fire men are getting screwed over if they fail their medical and that sucks kicked out and loss of or reduced pension.
While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.
Do not blame the Tories, Labour or whoever else for the state of the country, we have all added to the mess we are in, greed that is what is wrong in society today, OH and the ones that really caused the mess BANKERS. Yet agin this last week banks have been fined £2billion very good the cost of that fine will be paid by us Joe public.

[noggythenog]

Lew remember that you are talking from a shipping perspective whereby fire fighting is an essential aspect but then if you're in the Atlantic then the fire service aren't exactly to hand are they....but alongside then they could be to hand in theory....or tugs...although I do wonder whether in reality would anyone come close enough to an on fire LNGC.......hmmmm debatable perhaps.

& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.

to top that off they also get no extra money for being the driver in charge of a machine even though bin men do.....& then like you say get shafted on the pension which they have paid extra via every pay packet to get.

All services, emergency and millitary get shafted because they are the face of the people...the normal people with normal jobs doing extraordinary things and brave things....the people that others in communities could look up to and be proud of, they scare the rich and the politicians and they are the last people that the politicians would like to gain any power and are exactly the type of people that should be running the country in their place......that is why they are brow beaten and demonised and that is why we are duped into fighting amongst ourselves and that is why we hear nothing of the unjustified benefits of many civil servants quietly weaselling away large amounts of dosh for doing foc all and sat on their arses.....I haven't forgotten how it was actually the Sun newspaper that started to force the government into actually honouring the military more than the bare minimum when they introduced the help for heroes campaign.....before that the there was barely any recognition and they had the public firmly against the military as people for doing the things that the country ordered them to do...absolutely disgraceful.

[VNA]

While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.

& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.

As Noggy says Lew.  And rescue means getting the casualty out alive of all sorts of situations.  Hopefully none of us will find ourselves in that situation where our life is solely in the hands of the firemen, but if you do I think you'll want highly skilled, motivated caring men and women come to your rescue, not some cut price, profit first minimum wage just try and put out the fire outfit.  Fire Service personnel are worth every penny they are paid, and yes should be paid more than they currently are.

Working in a power station over the years I've had my fair share of fire fighting, damage control and casualty  rescue training.  Yes it's a lot more than just putting out fires.  And of course when you are putting out fires you are trying to bring a situation that is potentially totally and utterly out of control back under control.  Fires are unpredictable, you never know what's gonna happen. 

[fazersharp]

Its the services that have stood up to complain about their pay that have seen their "perks" looked closer at that have then had them removed in return for extra pay. maybe the police are a little bit more cleaver and realize they are onto a good thing and so keep their gobs shut as they don't want any practices or perks looked into.

[Dave48]

One of my 2 sons is a fireman and he is physically very fit (31 years old). But even he can see that not all current firefighters will retain their present fitness levels over the years ahead & for some lard arse politician to dictate that they should work to some daft retirement age-how many 55-60 year olds could climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious?
If people got paid what theyre worth we would probably see Cameron & co down the local job centre.
Servicemen,Nurses,Teachers,Ambulance crews,Firemen & police are essential workers and this should be recognised in their employment packages.
And im not going to start ranting about "celebrity" pay scales-I include footballers in this. :eek
I blame Thatcherism for kick-starting the "what can I grab -regardless of how it affects you or me" attitude that prevails today-so the politicians & bankers have much in common.

[fazersharp]

I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.

[noggythenog]

I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.

I agree with you a bit here Fazersharp but I think that in actual fact that the crews probably already do this as blokes ie the young guys take the hard jobs and the old hands do the easy ones....all very well until a watch is made up that doesn't take into account a variety of ages and you could end up with a whole bunch of geriatrics with nobody able to do anything or on the flip side a whole bunch of fit young guys yet none of them have any experience.

And I also think that it is harsh if someone has paid out extra from their pay packet for 20 years to get a pension and then is told oh no you cant do the bleep test so you're now not getting the pension.......do they get back all of the extra that they paid in then?.....at then end of the day it is constructive dismissal........but guys can be fit and healthy at 60....it is possible........except it isn't fitness that will stop them as that can be trained albeit a bit more harder as people age but it is the joints seizing up etc that you just cant really stop.....general wear & tear.......I think if someone is just a fat bloater and smokes and takes no interest in health then ok fair enough punish him for it but if it is just age then it is wrong.

But experience at a fire or incidents is just as important as fitness I think.

it just opens up a can of worms.....should we now say that a heart surgeon shouldn't be able to practice passed the age of 40 because by then his mind isn't as sharp as it was when he was 20.....or because he doesn't have quite the same dexterity.have a test...ok not as sharp....you're sacked mate!

Or what about a test for politicians.......left alone with a pie.......will they put their finger in it.....yes....ok you're promoted.

[BIG MAC]

If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service. However there needs to be a rank such as 'senior firefighter or some such' which applies to those not fit for frontline duty. I do believe the firefighter remit could widen out to even a building control function wher ethise no longer frontline actually impose the building regs instead of some spotty BC surveyor fresh out of uni who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

[VNA]

If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service.

What is the retirement age these days?  Have the Tory scum bags moved it to 70 yet?

But anyway look at it this way, say the retirement age is 70, and the average joining age 20.  Now a lot of people are gonna struggle past 50.  At work I don't think we let folks over 50 use breathing apparatus.  So you have a fighting fit fireman for 30 years hopefully, and then reduced duties for 20 years.  Well I reckon, if you do the percentages it won't work.

Now talking of retiring at 70.  Well if you sit on your fat arse pushing a pen or tapping away at a keyboard, well working to 70 shouldn't be too hard for most folks.

But if you are a fireman, or roofer, a scaffolder, a mechanic, a joiner, a carpet fitter - do I need to keep going?  Sure a few might be able to keep going but a lot of folks doing those jobs will be shagged well before 70.  So watch out for the Tory scum bag filthy robbing bastards foccing a whole load of folks who have worked hard, whose working life is done but they won't be able to claim a pension.

I mean I despair, this is a rich country, but you are getting screwed by a stockbroker PM and his cabinet of privately educated privileged millionaires, and their buddies who own the big media outlets are pulling the wool over your eyes.

People are obsessed with immigration, the EU, what benefits people are claiming, what their next door neighbour gets paid, who gets what pension, we fight over pennies amongst ourselves while the rich and the elite line their pockets.  Doh!

[lew600fazer]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

[slimwilly]

So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?


You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself


There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?


well




wellll

[noggythenog]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Lew.......you've foccin trumped me there bud fair play....that's a foccin tale to tell........bloody harrowing.........perhaps there aint many folk that would hear it if things were otherwise i accept that............foc sake..........a perfect example of how all the theoretical systems in the world cant account for the human factor.........blimey...........so there was a clear divide back then regards above and below deck.....thats a real shit story honestly.....like the sort of shit we see on all those space movies...actually may i suggest you dont watch Gravity....or sunshine.........i can only imagine really coz ive never beeny in that place....i wonder is it actually more traumatic to you knowing now what that tosser was gonna do to you because surely at the time you were unaware and otherwise disposed...


But it still dont mean that our services dont do a bloody good job.......ok its 2 different worlds....but i bet if the services had the chance that they would have demonstrated a more robust commitment than that captain...but they wouldnt be under the same pressures as him as a sole man...whilst holding a watch and all the rest.....still not excusable coz he shouldnt have gone into that line of work....but....and i bet that it was his own fears and incapabilities and absolute cultural dis attachment in the end.....and ....I'm sure of that.........but at the ended of the day it is the cultures that are to blame....not the individuals......individuals who are weak just dont help.

[noggythenog]

So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?


You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself


There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?


well




wellll

Oi


I actually agree with VNA on some of these recent points.




Everyone is a bunch o bar stewards.


But tbf VNA highlights that everyone who works for someone else and does anything manual is gonna be screwed over in old age...thats a fair point...its pretty obvious.




Fair enough the manual workers who work for themselves are different as they can account for the facts and plan for the future...do a few books....some sort of pension...bit o blagging.....they are entrepeneurs at the end of the day..they were always gonna have the savvy to do well.




But if you're one of the manual workers who works for someone else because they'd either lack ability or the will to go it alone then you better get hoping for a long and painful death because thats what youre gonna get mate and nobody will give 2 shits what illegal rave you went to when you were 25...sad but true......better off going to sea now or being in the forces and being shafted in other ways.

[VNA]

You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself [img alt=]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/img]

Like me?  My salary is well above average, got a nice old detached house, umm a 12 year old VW that I've been driving for last 9 years (it ain't broke, drives nice, so not gonna waste money on a new motor), I got a nice final salary pension lined up too (if it hangs in there).  So yeah I'm doing quite nicely, I'm all right Jack, but that doesn't stop me seeing what's going on and caring about it, and being pissed off at millions getting done over by neo liberal thieving immoral scum bag bastard tory foccers. 

OK?

So rather than attacking me, you could have a bash at addressing the points I've been making. 

[fazersharp]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Got to reply to this but I don't know what to say I read thinking boring story and then right at the end BAM! Like I sad earlier what lives we all have had and are having

[VNA]

The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Promote that Captain now! :lol

I do remember my first fire training.  A lot of it was done in welded together shipping containers, two stories high with hatches and vertical  ladders etc.  Some where on the ground floor a massive bonfire was lit, water was run through the complex to keep it cool and stop the containers distorting (or going on fire? :eek ).  We went in the top and played out our games.  Once you got used to it I quite enjoyed it.  At the end of each exercise one person got a shot at putting out the bonfire.  Now back then you used your ears to gauge heat.  We were told if we couldn't bear the pain from our ears we needed to back off or get out.  The only thing was I had long hair, lots if it, so I was given a fire hood (we were told these were used for fighting ship fires cos the ship was more important than the men on it - ie middle of ocean - well if you wanna live you wanna keep the ship afloat - so they would fight the fire till they dropped - anyway that's what they told us). 

Anyway it came to my turn to put out the fire under the supervision of one of the instructors.  Seeing as they had played no end of tricks on us, well I figured it was my turn to have a little fun.  He told me to hit the base of the fire and when I felt too much heat to knock it off.  So opened the hose right up and kept it right on the base of the fire.  Boy did I feel the heat, Jesus, shit loads of steam blasting back at me, but I didn't shut it off, I kept it going, my ears tucked safely under my flash hood.  Didn't knock it off till the instructor was screaming in a high pitched agonising howl "SHUT THE FUCKING WATER OFF - AAAAAAGH - SHUT IT OFF NOW - FUCKIN NOW - AAAAAAAGH!!!!"

The firemen were all fully confident they could take more heat than us amatuers, but yup, he forgot about my flash hood.

His ears were burning red for days :lol    And don't worry he got a good few more back at me. :lol  I think that fella picked me out for special treatment for the rest of the week :lol  Worth it :lol  Top bloke. 

The other thing I remember was one of the lads had a big mop of curly hair, some of it stuck out from under his hat a bit.  We did the hot hatch exercise.  They let the fire go a bit in the lower section, then open one of the hatches near the fire going from the 1st floor to the ground.  It's so you know what too much heat will feel like.  When the lad with the curly hair went down his brim right round his hat lit up for a couple of seconds, saved him a hair cut I think.

I tell you, if you think firemen are overpaid you wanna try a fire fighting course.  They deserve every penny they get.