Back end slider

[slimwilly]

Well " the only way is up"  well done fella..

[Grahamm]

Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!

I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).

Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.

[the cueball]

isn't sliding the back end how to get round corners?!??  :eek :eek :eek




@OP - don't be too hard on yourself, you stopped, didn't crash, and now get to shop for some new under crackers!!!  :b










I normally use front brake for most braking, then switch to rear brake for slow speed/filtering etc.


I like using the friction zone between the throttle/clutch/rear brake to keep the bike stable when going slow.


as always each to their own though....


:thumbup

[Fazer Forever]

When I changed to a 1000 rear caliper and braided lines I locked the rear a couple of times, once quite scarily.
As a partial solution I adjusted the brake pedal to a lower position so it's still there if needed but would need a
good press to come on fully. Worked for me so far.
As others have said, roadcraft is the key, but there's always some t**t who will, do something totally unexpected,
usually right in front of you.

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=17038.msg196506#msg196506 date=1432187515]
Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!

I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).

Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.
[/quote]


Only one way to find out isn't there?
Go and do an emergency stop, using both brakes, 70/30 or whatever, and try with the clutch pulled in, then without.
It all sounds nice reading and writing about it, but in a real emergency most people's natural instinct is to grab everything, it's just human nature in a panic situation.
This is just basic training and differences in braking techniques would have been shown to you during a days CBT (if you ever did one).


Note: Be careful if you try it with the clutch pulled in, I take no responsibility for any foc ups! 

[Dead Eye]

I've seen some discussion on use of the clutch before and generally I've seen it advised to just pull it in. The reasoning behind this is that most of us are going to sort of panic and not think about it all fully and whilst the engine braking may help to start with, at lower speeds the engine braking force will be reversed as the engine starts to try and pull the bike forward before stalling. Obviously at higher speeds this makes less of a difference, but I still think it makes sense.

I really need to practice some of this myself as well

[noggythenog]

I've seen some discussion on use of the clutch before and generally I've seen it advised to just pull it in. The reasoning behind this is that most of us are going to sort of panic and not think about it all fully and whilst the engine braking may help to start with, at lower speeds the engine braking force will be reversed as the engine starts to try and pull the bike forward before stalling. Obviously at higher speeds this makes less of a difference, but I still think it makes sense.

I really need to practice some of this myself as well

Did some skid pan training ages ago in a LGV & we were tought to push the clutch in when we broke traction......did figure of 8's on the trolley thingy & the instructor would wangle the box and oooft out the arse end would go & you had to learn to intuitively stick the clutch in.......cant remember why it helped but i am guessing now that because there was power still going in & youd only just tipped over the edge between grip & nowt so i think to break the link to the power was more likely to bring you back into thetracion zone......that's in my own noggy words of course :rolleyes .


But anyway...perhaps that is where the clutch also comes into it on bikes....i dunno really....i know bikes have greater engine braking so it may differ.


I just focus on the front brake only on the bike.....because it was mostly how i was tought (new school) & because i am tiny of brain & if i can manage to not grab a fist of front brake by only concentrating on front brake then jobs a good'n......failed once on the 600, locked up and managed to stay on....2nd time on 600 again i failed because i ran out of space and had to squeeze harder........have had a pretty extreme decelaration on the FZ1 & aced it......although admittedly i was already eying & aiming for a narrow channel between my way & oncoming traffic & thank foc i stopped before i needed it.


For me....focusing on clutch grabbing or back brake micro adjusting just isnt gonna be in the equation......hats off to the guys who can manage to do it.

[Razgruff]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=17038.msg196534#msg196534 date=1432204564]
[quote author=darrsi link=topic=17038.msg196506#msg196506 date=1432187515]
Not one of you has mentioned DON'T TOUCH THE CLUTCH???
That's what causes the rear to want to overtake you, or fishtail, because you've released the engine braking!

I don't see how this follows as your rear brake gives more resistance than engine braking (try stopping using engine braking, then try it in neutral with the rear brake).

Also, of course, pulling in the clutch means that you don't risk stalling and thus not being able to quickly move from where you end up which you may need to do in an emergency situation.
[/quote]


Only one way to find out isn't there?
Go and do an emergency stop, using both brakes, 70/30 or whatever, and try with the clutch pulled in, then without.
It all sounds nice reading and writing about it, but in a real emergency most people's natural instinct is to grab everything, it's just human nature in a panic situation.
This is just basic training and differences in braking techniques would have been shown to you during a days CBT (if you ever did one).


Note: Be careful if you try it with the clutch pulled in, I take no responsibility for any foc ups! 
[/quote]

I quick shift down when I have to do unexpected sudden stops. releasing the clutch on every down shift, also use it braking into corners, when having fun.
It works better on twins, helps to keep bike balanced and reduces risk of the front washing out on you.
On some surfaces there will become a point where you need to release front brake pressure because it feels like it's going to wash out on you, or you have to change direction/duck around whatever has suddenly got in front of you not all emergency stops a a straight line situation. and you may need to head for that escape route.
It's hard to turn a bike when it's stood on it's nose

[esetest]

Whenever i have to do an emergency stop which isn't very often , i always forget to pull the clutch until the last minute and nearly stall the bike , when we were being taught to do stoppies at the track day we were taught to pull the clutch in , which is something i had to think about as the first few times i forgot , in an emergency situation which generally is unexpected maybe down to a lack of concentration i would still probably forget to pull the clutch in .

[darrsi]

This has some interesting points, it's worth a look.


As i said before though, it's all very well talking about this subject, but when you get that real brown trouser moment you do tend to panic and forget all the good advice whilst fearing for your life.
The trick is to try and avoid putting yourself in any unnecessary risky situations in the first place, although we all know that occasionally that's simply unavoidable.
But that's the game we've chosen to play.  :thumbup


http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/

[fazersharp]

I quick shift down when I have to do unexpected sudden stops. releasing the clutch on every down shift, also use it braking into corners, when having fun.

On some surfaces there will become a point where you need to release front brake pressure because it feels like it's going to wash out on you, or you have to change direction/duck around whatever has suddenly got in front of you not all emergency stops a a straight line situation. and you may need to head for that escape route.

Yep I would agree with this. I use it all and in different amounts depending on the circumstances and road condition,(dusty ,gravely dry old , new ) and I dont think you can apply everything that you do in a car and use it on a bike./ I dont actually brake much in normal riding.

[Razgruff]

I still do no braking rides every time I have to brake is a fail. I was taught from the very beginning keep it smooth, don't surprise or unsettle/upset the bike. Modern bike brakes and suspensions are much better now. But I think keeping it smooth is still applicable

I should add modern tyres are better too

[Dead Eye]

It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...

[sinto607276]

It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...

Your not alone :eek think it's called shit my pants syndrome :lol

[darrsi]

It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...

That's just normal though isn't it.
In a motor you have a seat belt, a cage, one brake that sorts all 4 wheels out for you equally plus a steering wheel to grab hold of if you need to suddenly stop.
The fact that we've now discussed this with different opinions will now lead to even more confusion the next time that BMW pulls out on you.


"Shall i use one brake or two? Should i pull the clutch in, or leave it alone? Shall i........aaaaaaarrrrgh........hedge."  :'(

[Grahamm]

It's somewhat infuriating when you understand all the principles, how to apply them and deal with a situation... but then as soon as it happens you panic and revert to being a wide-eyed muppet with about as much intelligence as a pheasant whilst staring down your doom like a rabbit stuck in headlights...

That's why you need to find a safe place off the roads to practice this so it becomes something you don't need to think about.

The same goes for, eg, counter-steering around an obstacle, rather than just grabbing the brakes or swerving the wrong way because you've tried to yank the bars to the right but end up going left.

[fazersharp]

Counter streering, theres another one, I had never heard of it when I came across it and so read up on it and went out -- only to find I was already doing it without realizing and without knowing there was an actual word for it and that it was a "thing"

[Dead Eye]

Counter-steering has always been fairly easy though I occasionally need to actively remind myself about it

I haven't done too many miles on the bike this year, maybe I'll make up for it as summer progresses

[sinto607276]

There's been lots of good comments posted, and lots of food for thought

But I was thinking, what suits one guy, won't suit another, it's certainly not "one rule for everyone"...... My thoughts for this is based on not everyone has the same brain power and reacts differently, nor is everyone the same weight/size, where one person might be light, slam on his brakes and it won't fishtail as much as someone who's of bigger stature. Other things to take into consideration are the tyre pressures, how good your braking system is and I would say the most important is....how much experience have you got in the situation you are getting into? I would hope not a lot! Hence the reason for forward planning, yes things do happen unexpectedly but as bikers we are more vulnerable than most other things on the road and we'll be the ones that come off worst, even if we aren't to blame

So I would prescribe to getting some training with advanced riding using either IAM, ROSPA or even a one to one guy, I'm sure there's plenty available throughout the land.

It's done me well, not that I'm perfect (who is) I'm probably far from it to be honest, but it did teach me to read the road a lot better and a lot quicker, also taught me to lift my head and not focus just where my light beam is! I would highly recommended anyone to go on one course to better their riding.

Going back to original post, the advance riding technique would of maybe prevented this happening and the panic setting in and therefore the 'grabbing' of the brake might of been avoided.
But that's all hear say, glad you only had to buy new underwear and not a new bike.

[darrsi]

All i know is, after 28 years of riding, my voice has a much more controlled "You cuuuuuuunt!!!!!!" in a panic situation.  :grumble