Oil filters

[Gnasher]

What happened to this thread, I thought it was about oil filters  :rolleyes

A certain person as usual wanted to argue and throw it off track  :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

[VNA]

 

A certain person as usual wanted to argue and throw it off track  :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

It’s no me that started making bold unsubstantiated claims.  Nor is it I that claims to know beter than the boffins that design our bikes.  Nor is it I that after making such silly claims started calling others names because they didn’t agree.

But as with any internet based conversation there's a good dose of arguing and drama thrown in for good measure.... on that note I'm nearly out if popcorn...... as you were ??

Indeed, and it’s the same topics that come up again and again, with people making the same wild unsubstantiated claims.  Anyway;


Two things happen when you run an engine in;


Conformability – is the initial wear as components wear to fit each other better.
Surface finishing – the surface alterations that occur at microscopic levels when two surfaces pass over each other.


Plain bearings however are fine, no real conforming or finishing takes place.  The key changes that take place concern the pistons and bores. 



One thing that happens on running a bike in is that you alter the piston and bore surfaces.  You want the initial jagged machined surface to form in plateaus and valleys.  The plateaus bear load and the valleys hold oil.  You want the right balance of plateau to valley to form in your bores.


An engine is generally considered run in after 500 miles, but the process is not considered fully complete ie full surface stabilisation, for around 5000 miles.


Fully synthetic oils can interfere with the surface stabilisation process, and even lead to the formation of lacquer and high temperature varnish on low mileage machines.  That means you will end up with a bike that’s a little down on full power and will burn a certain amount of oil. 



If you look at http://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/p...ower1.html

Notice that Castrol Power One GPS;
Promotes longer engine life by minimising the formulation of lacquer, sludge, carbon deposits and high temperature varnish, ensuring outstanding engine cleanliness under the most severe service conditions.

They don’t make the same claim for fully synth Power 1 racing.

Note also they state their semi-synth is suitable for those engaged in motorsports.

Basically these oils have slightly different properties.  The semi-synth should be used for at least the first 10,000 miles on a road bike, and frankly is probably the better performing oil for everyday non-racing use.

To sum up – run your bike in as per manufactures recommendation but don’t be too gentle.  Make sure you use semi synth for the first 10,000 miles.

[lew600fazer]

Hiflo are TUV approved and will perform to the same standard as OE, but they're of a lesser quality i.e. the paint is thinner and the steel is lower grade, therefore they rust much quicker, they can also be pigs to get off at times.

HIflo, according to their web site have been making OEM filters since 1963.  I've been using em for quite a few years now, it seems to be to be the same quality as the Yamaha marked product.

Should be torqued to 17NM.  Use one of these to fit then remove;

http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_1...er_wrench/

personally I go OE with Silkolene Comp 4. 

Hiflo and super4 for me. Comp 4 is fully synth, OTT I'd say for road use, and if you must make sure you have some miles on the bike before you start filling it with fully synth as can polish bores which leads to a bike that burns oil.

The only tool you need for fitting an oil filter

[darrsi]

I was wondering about the suggestion of 17Nm for an oil filter being rather excessive, bearing in mind exhaust header nuts for example are only 12Nm and suffer from vibration?
No need at all to go that tight, in fact i didn't even consider that there was a torque setting, i always thought common sense would suffice, and if it dripped it needed nipping up a bit.

[VNA]

Dunno.

I can't get 17NM oot o ma hand on a filter - not on my Fazer anyway.
The other thing I find is, my hands are oily and the filter is often oily so it's difficult to get fully hand tight at all.
Also once with my car I thought it had started to burn oil, nope, I didn't get the filter on tight enougth by hand - doh! :eek
I just don't want oil dripping from the bike filter cos I figure I know where it might just end up.
So there's an offical figure, I've got a set of good quality torque wrenches lying there, so I just torque it on.
Never had a problem getting them back off (apart from one on a car I bought but it wisnae me that put it on)

17NM is only 12 lbs-ft in English.  It's not a lot anyway.

[mtread]

''It's not that they don't change the oil it's that they don't really need to''
Are you suggesting that the engine as it comes out of the  factory contains no contaminants whatsoever? That the engine is assembled in perfectly sterile conditions, and that machining causes no residual material at all? We're not just talking about the bores here. The oil circulates around all parts of the engine, gearbox etc.
Of course it needs to be drained and replaced.

[Frosties]

Dunno.

I can't get 17NM oot o ma hand on a filter - not on my Fazer anyway.
The other thing I find is, my hands are oily and the filter is often oily so it's difficult to get fully hand tight at all.
Also once with my car I thought it had started to burn oil, nope, I didn't get the filter on tight enougth by hand - doh! :eek
I just don't want oil dripping from the bike filter cos I figure I know where it might just end up.
So there's an offical figure, I've got a set of good quality torque wrenches lying there, so I just torque it on.
Never had a problem getting them back off (apart from one on a car I bought but it wisnae me that put it on)

17NM is only 12 lbs-ft in English.  It's not a lot anyway.

Which is why I agree with Lew on fitting filters. Use one of these to remove filters for years

[Gnasher]

''It's not that they don't change the oil it's that they don't really need to''
Are you suggesting that the engine as it comes out of the  factory contains no contaminants whatsoever? That the engine is assembled in perfectly sterile conditions, and that machining causes no residual material at all? We're not just talking about the bores here. The oil circulates around all parts of the engine, gearbox etc.

Mate it's an engine made in a factory "sterile conditions" behave yourself  :rolleyes  Look engines and their manufacture has improved leaps and bounds in recent years, they are all cleaned and assembled in clean conditions, because of material now used and machining techniques components are manufactured to very fine tolerances, which in turn means almost no running in i.e. partials of metal being worn away thus transferring to the oil.


This is why oil had I repeat HAD to be changed as these partials would damaged the engine if left, you don't get this any longer yes there are some but it's extremely little.  If you buy a new car you don't take it back at 600 miles to get the oil changed...do you why...............yep because it don't need changing as I said earlier 20k service intervals, car and bike engines/gear boxes etc aren't to dissimilar these days. The main difference and why car service intervals are so much longer than bikes is most bikes use the shame oil to lub the gearbox, which exerts shearing action, this breaks down oil faster hence greatly reduce service intervals.  The bike industry is much smaller and of course they're not going to give away a money spinner of now CHARGING you for the 600 mile service.......................... :rolleyes 
[/size]

        [/size]
Of course it needs to be drained and replaced.

[/size]Yes of course it needs changing just not at 600 miles............................... :rolleyes :rolleyes  if you the owner wants to change your oil every 2k (I know some do) fill you'r boots all you're doing is throwing money down the drain and making increased sales for oil company's and not help the environment. [size=78%]


Right that my last word on this one, have a nice day.

[mtread]

But they make hardly any money on the oil - £10? Most of the dealer's profit is on servicing. Which is usually free for the first service.....

[Gnasher]

Which is usually free for the first service.....

No mate you now have to pay for a first service or so I'm told 



This is really my last

[mtread]

Not on the last 3 bikes I've bought new.....

[Frosties]

Sorry fella but no date on invoice = null and void  :pokefun

[mtread]

It was for a new Tiger 800XRX in June 2015, but now it's my turn not to be bothered any more.....

[VNA]

Gnasher is right on that point.  (poor sod has to br right about something )

I was looking at an MT10 a few weeks back.  And yup they now charge labour for the first service, and that appears to be what most Yamaha dealers are doing.

Dunno why, seems a bit of a cheek.  Must be Yamaha UK policy now.

Might have to do with the rising cost of bikes as a result of the BREXIT vote.  Importers desperate to try and keep the list price down a tad. Talking of which, if we continue down the BREXIT path, it's odds on that prices will rise further.

The bike industry is much smaller and of course they're not going to give away a money spinner of now CHARGING you for the 600 mile service.......................... [img alt=:rolleyes]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/img] 

I tend to disagree.  There must be a good reason why it seems all the manufacteurers insist on a 600 mile service.
  .  It's a competitive market place, dumping the 600 mile service would save cost  andmake your product a little cheaper and more attractive to the consumer.  But none of em are showing any sign of doing so.


So I doubt it’s grabbing cash.  Anyway, a better way for the importer to generate cash for their dealers is what Suzuki have done and offer a 3 year warranty via its dealer network.  Makes their bikes more attractive brings the purchaser back to the dealer to spend some more cash, and most punters will be more than happy to do so.

[mtread]

Perhaps another reason to buy a new Triumph? It's the manufacturer that decides service costs, not the dealer.

[celticdog]

I bought an oil filter recently from my local yamaha dealer, (6months ago) unfortunately it didn't come with a free bike or a 600 mile service  :\ 
If you buy a new bike then you're fair game for the dealers marketing machine- You're so foccin special as the song goes. Would you buy a bike that missed out on the 600 mile service?
Marketing or essential maintenence? the decision is yours.

[VNA]

The dealers are independent businesses independent of the importer which is an independent business independent of the manufacturer.


Manufacturers set the service schedule.  The importer provides the warranty and sets the dealer expectation.  The dealer sets the price for service, though the first service may have a fixed or max price set by the importer.

Would you buy a bike that missed out on the 600 mile service?

A bike that has missed it’s 600 mile service is no longer under warranty.


So what about oil filters? :lol

[lew600fazer]

I have never had to pay for a first service , why because when I am buying the bike and the dealer says the first service is £xx, I tell him staright you are not the only dealer in town so shall we start again? my trade value is £xxxx anthe first service is-£xxx so we are agreed on that, if not I am out the door.

[mtread]

''Manufacturers set the service schedule.  The importer provides the warranty and sets the dealer expectation.  The dealer sets the price for service, though the first service may have a fixed or max price set by the importer.''
Well I'm afraid you are wrong, in respect of Triumph authorised dealers anyway.  The dealers may be independent, but Triumph set fixed prices for all scheduled servicing.