Swingarm failure - torque arm mounting point

[unfazed]

The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.

And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!

Eureka 



Nothing to do with suspension

Hmmm -- I pulled my wheel back a few months ago by about 2mm (yes) do you think I should now go and loosen off the caliper-side arm bolt, and then re tighten to realease said stress

Technically, Yes 

[unfazed]

Errr forgive me but I will read that again another day --------- when Mr Tyskie is not with me

All tweetytek is saying is that the angle between

A. The torque arm and the swinging arm
and
B. The torque arm and caliper bracket changes as the caliper bracket rotates when you move the axle. 

If the bolts are tight it cannot move freely and stresses the bolting (pivot) points.
Eventually something has to give and in Kebab19 case it was the swinging arm pivot point 

[Neon Knight]

Thanks guys for this informative chin wag. I recently did a complete overhaul of the rear end of my fazer 600. This included new chain and sprockets, and a nice new sexy R6 shock conversion kit bought from kebab19. Had a bit of a problem fitting the shock because my suspension linkage bearings were non existent due to failure on my part to grease them. Bought a second hand linkage and was able to fit the afore mentioned sexy shocker. By the way thanks again kebab19    for the shock and the offer to search your garage for an old linkage for me.  I then put on the new chain and sprockets but had a real hard time trying to get the wheel to line up using the alignment marks on the swingarm. I got it quite close but it was a bugger to do and did line up completely true. I scratched my head and gave up resigned to the fact that the almost correct alignment was as close as I could get. I know realize that when I replaced the chain and sprockets and tried to align the wheel I didn't loosen the torque arm bolts  . So first thing tomorrow morning I shall be out with the tools and will be realigning the wheel but this time with the torque arm bolts loose. Hopefully this will allow me to correctly and accurately align the back wheel. Sorry to hear about the accident you nearly had kebab19 but something really fooking useful has came out of it and I for one am greatfull for the information regarding the need to loosen the torque arm bolts prior to rear wheel alignment. So thanks guys, a day when something new and useful is learnt is a good day indeed. Cheers to all who contributed. 

[tweetytek]

 

[midden]

I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward.  Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.

[unfazed]

Recommended torque on the nuts is 23 Nm,

[tweetytek]

I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward.  Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.

agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
 

[unfazed]

I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward.  Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.

agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
 

Because everybody knows the rule "if in doubt swing out of it" 

How many do you know who do their own maintenance actually own a Torque Wrench? 

[fazersharp]

No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
 

[tweetytek]

No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum

Yes but you are quoting a yamaha SHOP manual . it assumes a working level competence within the shop bay at the DEALER garage. All staff undergo general yamaha centric DEALER/franchise training and this sort of document is merely a guide for THE SPECIFIC BIKE MODEL. I mean this shop manual doesnt say a lot of things in a lot of areas; you are better off with a Haynes if you are new to Yamahas or indeed perhaps new to bike DIY in general. Otherwise this shop manual is okay but not a prescriptive line by line 101% step by step noddy guide so watch out 

Of course my friend, the litmus test is to repeat your test again once the bike is all good to go and come back and tell us what happened after a few 000s miles !!! It is entirely your decision as to  whether you take the advice on offer above from foccers - or not 

[fazersharp]

I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.
 
EDIT----- just to make it clear that the advice given by focers is excellent and always given through experience.Just pointing out that no manual says to loosen it

[tweetytek]

I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.

LoL - don't loosen it then

just have a look at that haynes for us a minute and tell us which way to turn the key in the seat lock - I'm not sure ?! cheers

[fazersharp]

just have a look at that haynes for us a minute and tell us which way to turn the key in the seat lock - I'm not sure ?! cheers

It says clockwise--is that wrong then because you are not making any sence now because you said

 you are better off with a Haynes if you are new to Yamahas or indeed perhaps new to bike DIY in general

So are you now saying I should take no notice of haynes

[noggythenog]

It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.


Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it

[tweetytek]

It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.


Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it

the practice is quite common mate,  jI've been doing it for years, but here is just a few links taken during 10 seconds of surfing ...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU

http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/

http://diversionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0

I could probably find 000s more but hey, the haynes manual doesnt mention it  so maybe I'm gunna stop bothering and just do something more interesting as I am no expert on fizzies and only ever owned 1 (currently) for only a few months. but this sort of "generic" failsafe working practice is one of those things that takes seconds and saves a loada aggro - no brainer really

[noggythenog]

It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.


Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it

the practice is quite common mate,  jI've been doing it for years, but here is just a few links taken during 10 seconds of surfing ...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU

http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/

http:/ersionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0

I could probably find 000s more but hey, the haynes manual doesnt mention it  so maybe I'm gunna stop bothering and just do something more interesting

Granted...fair enough....but it isnt exactly intuitive i dont think........some of yous guys have vast experience of bikes so maybe you've learnt it but i still think it is one of those things that is a bit of a oh foc....real simple though....kebab seems to know his stuff and he still got cought out maybe.


Actually....question......i never needed to adjust my chain....if my torque arm was done up tighter than a nuns tights then was it taking the strain that my chain should have been taking and then would my torque arm have exploded........or would a chain still stretch anyway?

[tweetytek]

hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness,  and darrsi seem to know quite  a bit

[noggythenog]

hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness,  and darrsi seem to know quite  a bit

Its purely hypothetical.


If the torque arm is too tight then does it therefore save the chain?


Im not saying that it is a good way to save a chain but more a way for me to get my head around the whole process of whats going on here with this problem.


I dont even have a 600 any more...well i do...but just a frame....to be fair that frame isnt causing me any issues

[fazersharp]

 Just read your links, and none of them are to do with FZS600 and they too are having the same debate, and also saying that their printed instructions do not say to loosen.
I don't understand why its being said here that you should and yet 2 different yam manuals and 1 haynes don't mention it.
And all those people who have adjusted the chain without loosening the arm --how come they could yet still adjust the chain.
I'm sure there is built in movement in the arm fixings 23NM and maybe kebabs problem is from over tightening them and removing any give it once had.
 

[tweetytek]

Just read your links, and none of them are to do with FZS600 and they too are having the same debate, and also saying that their printed instructions do not say to loosen.
I don't understand why its being said here that you should and yet 2 different yam manuals and 1 haynes don't mention it.
And all those people who have adjusted the chain without loosening the arm --how come they could yet still adjust the chain.
I'm sure there is built in movement in the arm fixings 23NM and maybe kebabs problem is from over tightening them and removing any give it once had.

I didnt say they were all fizzies - I was making the point that its a general issue / practice for many people

Look, if you dont want to do it dont bloody do it - I dont care really to be honest what you do but glad to see your well and alive after the awful incident - keep it that way 

[fazersharp]

when you pull the wheel back the distance between the calliper torque arm point and the swing arm fixing point stays the same,the holes are round not elongated, what changes is the calliper rotation which is catered for by a greased pivot point at each end of the arm held inplace by a 23nm bolt that still allows for a pivot on calliper rotation when the wheel is pulled back.
That's how I am seeing it. 

[fazersharp]

Just to add tweety I know that you have had a bad day, I don't want to wind you up or upset you in any way, I am not arguing with you as such just need to make sure its right.
One thing is though that it wont do any harm to loosen them BUT it will do great harm if you do not use a torque wrench and you end up over tightening them

[darrsi]

hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness,  and darrsi seem to know quite  a bit

I just do what unfazed, midden and his dudeness tell me to.

[tweetytek]

Just to add tweety I know that you have had a bad day, I don't want to wind you up or upset you in any way, I am not arguing with you as such just need to make sure its right.
One thing is though that it wont do any harm to loosen them BUT it will do great harm if you do not use a torque wrench and you end up over tightening them

No harm intended. I've had a good day actually, and going to have a better nite. Don't take me too seriously as im not touchy feely, cuddling and caring...I won't hold your hand... Just the way I am, but it's not anger or frustration or ridicule ... Chill 

[kebab19]

Wow, this one has run for a bit while I've been away
The swingarm wasn't powdercoated black, just sprayed by the previous owner judging by the way paint was coming off it.  The replacement torque arm was in place when I bought the bike.
It's true, I hadn't adjusted the torque arm to compensate and paid a (relatively small) price for the mistake .
I have now replaced the swingarm, chain adjusters and brake line. There is a small nick /gouge in the caliper but not too deep.
Whilst I am still a fan of replacement rear calipers, I think I'll go back to a standard torque arm.  I'm not sure if it's a different length as I don't have one for direct comparison.
Still, hopefully my misfortune has provided some useful information.

Must post another shot of the damage now I have the old swingarm off...