New clutch woes - help!

[Arfa]

Just swapped on some new EPC clutch plates and heavy duty springs; soaked plates for an hour, refitted all plates as original, judder spring on 2nd plate, pressure plate in the single position where it sits flush, torques all up as per Haynes book (8Nm spring bolts), put everything back together, fresh oil (Castrol Power1 bike oil, 10w40 semi), adjusted clutch cable at sprocket cover and lever, just a spot of free play at lever. But now I'm having a lot of trouble with the clutch action:


The clutch lever is really stiff, really hard to pull all the way in.
When I engage 1st, the bike starts to pull forward immediately before I've let any clutch out, I have to hold the front brake to keep it stationary.
When I pull the lever all the way back, I still can't get it into neutral again, I have to hit the kill switch.
I've been trying to adjust the cable cable/lever this way and that, but still can't improve matters.


Help! What have I done wrong?!

[slappy]

Swap the heavy duty springs out for the originals.

[Bretty]

Indeed. Your new clutch is heavy because you've installed heavy duty springs.

Have you also adjusted the clutch mechanism at the bottom also? Under the rubber bung? I should think you will need to wind it out a little to compensate for your thicker new plates. The manual should talk you through it, else search on here for 'clutch adjustment'.

[Arfa]

Just been tinkering more, think I may have had the lower clutch cable adjustment too tight. Adjusted it some: held nut tight, screwdriver turned until i hit resistance, then back off 1/4 turn, then tighten nut. Lever doesn't feel so hard now.
Was a lot of free play though, so had to take that out at lever. But still same problem (before and after adjusting lever): bike pulls forward a little when clutch fully pulled in. Can't get it into neutral, unless I kill it, and then often whack it into 2nd and then go back down.

[Bretty]

Hmm, I'm not sure what else to suggest. On the side stand you should be able to pull off the clutch cover without draining the oil. Watch the clutch working as you pull the lever see if you get any clues.
Then I would try removing and refitting all the plates and checking the order.


I would probably consider reducing  the amount of adjustment on the mechanism too. Check the mechanism it clean and back it off 1/8 of a turn rather than 1/4.


the next step would be refitting the old springs.

[Arfa]

Tightening the clutch adjustment screw further on the sprocket cover is what I originally tried, think this is what made the clutch lever really heavy. Was definitely better when looser, though this gave a lot of free play at the lever to take in.
FWIW I gave this sprocket cover and clutch mech a good clean out last week, as the cable was my first suspect for the original slipping clutch. Cable looked in good nick, so left it as is in end (is OEM and only 2 years old).

I did have a nose at the clutch plates through the oil fill hole. Pulling the clutch does seem to make the clutch push out slightly. Not by much mind, though I'm not sure how much movement there should be.

Reading around, I'm wondering if my plates are sticking a bit. Possibly explain the forward motion I still get when I pull the clutch in. Is it possible I didn't soak the plates for long enough?

Also the steel plates: these did have a bit of blue-ing from past worn clutch. They don't need replacing, just a sign of wear - correct? I have a feeling these may not have all gone in same way around - reading around if seems they have a curved edge on one side. Could this be a problem?

I'll try popping the clutch cover off again tomorrow and go back over my steps to see what I may have done. Didn't realise I didn't need to drain oil if on side stand, just changed it early at same time! I could try the original springs, though they old and were somewhat discoloured with some yellow/orange corrosion on a couple.

[yemisiblake]

Are you sure you have the plates in the right order, especially the friction plate that comes after the anti-judder spring? This is a different diameter than ths rest. I had mine in the wrong place and my clutch coukd reach neutral but wouldn't disengage.

[vinnyb]

I've only ever had to replace clutch plates twice but I soaked them overnight before doing it, although I can't imagine that dealers would soak them for that long so I don't know if it would make much difference

[Jamieg285]

Is the clutch cable worn?  Perhaps it's stretched just enough to not give you enough pull.

[Arfa]

Pretty sure I had plates in right order:-

Clutch plate
Steel plate
Judder spring and smaller clutch plate
Steel Plate
Clutch plate
...
Clutch plate
Pressure plate.

I'll tip it on side and double check tonight.

Yeah, I do have a spare clutch cable, haven't fitted yet as one on bike looked in good nick still and was only 2 years old. But, I can certainly try swapping on the new one.

Either way, I'm fairly convinced it's plates sticking: maybe bad order/re-fitment, springs too strong or lever/cable not pushing pressure plate enough.

So, these heavy duty springs:
My interpretation was these are stronger and more robust but with same sprint compression coefficient, rather than being stiffer and requiring more force to compress. Is that not so? 
And if not, what would be the motivation for fitting springs that require stronger hands to use?! They must be popular as many retailers don't even sell non-heavy duty springs (e.g we-moto).

[Arfa]

Also, what's the difference between EBC springs CSK081 and CSK002?  Both appear compatible with the FZS600. I've got the former.

[Bretty]

Clutch slip can be quite common on these fazers. Usually due to the standard springs (often over 15yrs old) relaxing a bit, using the wrong oil, the wrong oil level, worn plates or a badly adjusted mechanism.


hence, people fit the heavier springs to stop this.. when actually it probably just requires NEW oem/standard springs.


I put heavy duty springs in mine before I knew better. But I've just gotten used to it.

[yemisiblake]

Ignore this comment. I didn't realise you'd replied already.

[darrsi]

My OEM cable I changed recently had only done 8000 miles, but in a lot of stop/start traffic, and I had no more play at the top end, it was screwed out to the limit.
But a new cable sorted it, and I was able to screw the top end in at least half way, maybe even a little bit more.

[daviee]

mine has heavy duty springs in it and its very heavy to pull but everything works as it should i would make sure you soak them over night as they will get sticky and grabby if you dont dealer fitted mine before i owned it and they would stick and i would have to rock it back and fourth to free it but its getting better with use i would try your standard springs in it and go from their heavy duty are not needed unless you want to be popeye lol

[Arfa]

Hmmm, curious and curiouser. So took wife's bike into work today, got home to check out my Fazer, start it up and clutch seemingly working a treat. Engages fine, slips into neutral perfect. Sorted I think, maybe plates hadn't soaked enough, so quick razz around and things still seem good,  lots of bite really good pull etc.

However 10 minutes later, I pull up at home and the bike just refuses to go into neutral again and starts pulling still when I try to engage the clutch. So, it seems the plates are sticking when it's hot, but fine when cold. Looking through the oil filler, the clutch plates are definitely moving when I pull the clutch lever. But once hot, when I stick it on centre stand and engage 1st, then pull the clutch lever in the even with high revs I can still stall it by with the back brake - it's sticking that much. I can almost do a burnout with clutch pulled in!

Ran out of time tonight to pull clutch cover off and check plates though. :-(

[darrsi]

You sure it's not a gear selector issue?

[Arfa]

Pulled clutch apart again last night, double checked everything. had read that the steel plates have a slightly rounded outer edge on one side. So made sure they were all the same way around, rounded edge facing outwards. Noticed some plates were a little dry-ish, so dunked them in oil. Warmed things up, did about 45 mins stop start town riding - things work better now. No longer pulls forward with clutch engaged. However it's still very reluctant to go into neutral when hot and engine is running. Needs a fair force to kick gear selector up and always goes straight to 2nd. Ditto selecting down, invariable goes straight back to 1st. Is fine if I hit kill switch and cut engine though.

Tried re-adjusted clutch (at lever & sprocket cover) both when cold and hot.

Any further suggestions?

Going to try swapping clutch cable anyway.
Wondering if new steel plates are needed. Weren't obviously warped, but I didn't thoroughly check. Tis only £37 for set of TRW ones - worth a shot?

[Bretty]

Just wondering, why did you replace the clutch plates in the first place?

Another thing you should check (I forgot to mention), where the teeth of the metal plates locate on the inner clutch boss, they can wear little grooves in it. This can cause the clutch to stick and might be an issue now you've fitted new plates.

I'll take a photo and add it on....

Brett

[Bretty]

This wear might explain why it behaves differently when you reorientate the metal plates.
This one in the photo is hardly worn. I've seen a lot worse!