When your second gear goes pop: Engine rebuild

[AyJay]

Hi guys,


Some of you may remember me posting many years ago that my second gear had gone pop and that I had replaced the entire lump rather than strip down the engine. Well, the bike has now down 117,000 miles and the replacement engine unit has now done 60,000, so I thought I'd better get on with reconditioning the original engine in case I need it. As luck would have it, a second hand gearbox came up on eBay for bargain £75, so I thought the time was right. It must have come from a very low mileage bike because it is almost perfect. Not a scratch on the selectors or the dogs, gearwheels almost brand new. A good start.

I watched John Frankenthal's R1 engine rebuild videos on YouTube several times
http://www.youtube.com/user/SupermotoJohn?feature=watch
and emboldened, I made a start.

The original engine has been sitting in the garage since 2006, so I cleared out the conservatory and started cleaning. After 57,000 miles and 7 years in a garage, it took a while.





The finish as we all know is pretty crap on Fazer engines. Believe me, after cleaning, it still looks bad and since the camera deceives, I have to tell you it looks worse in the flesh. But it's cleaner than it was. I've got a big problem with the studs which are well rusted in, and the oil return pipe bolts sheered with 0.1 ft/lbs or torque and will have to be drilled out.



I bought an electric rattle gun and various other tools and started unbolting. Here's what came out.
First, a very manky cylinder head. The cylinder tops are just as bad.



Although the original honing cross hatching is very much in evidence, the bores themselves have marks and I'm not sure whether they need reboring. Anyone care to suggest if they do? See the marks at 2 o'clock about 0.5cms from the top? You can feel very slight ripples if you run a finger over them.



Crank journals seem ok, as do the cams.



But there are significant pick up marks on the bearing shells probably from it running low on oil. This engine always burnt a lot of oil.



There's a nasty bit of damage on the inside of the gearbox where something hit it


But here's the piece de resistance


It had been slipping out of second and getting worse from the day I bought it. The cause is a known problem on 2001 Gen 1s and various R1s and is down to incorrectly cut dogs, so I understand. Staggering amount of damage though.



Comprehensively trashed. I thought it would just be the 2nd/6th gear wheels, but it ain't. And the dogs are scored and bent too.


And here are the bits from the gears which I found in the sump and went flying round the engine. Everywhere I look there are tiny little shards of metal coating every surface.



My next steps are to work out whether the cost of rebuilding it is worth it. I would like to reunite the original engine with the chassis for originality's sake, and although the gearbox hasn't cost much, I suspect I'm going to spend a bit of money. Possible rebore, pistons, rings, valve guide seals, gasket sets and so on. Is it worth it, I ask myself.


Anyone care to venture an opinion?

[red98]

Ok....I, ll start.. :rolleyes...if its a keeper, then its worth it.rebuilding it is going to be expensive, but when you have finished you know what you, ve got, as apposed to a second hand lump, you dont know what its like on the inside......regarding the marks on the bores you might get away with honing them and fitting new rings, hard to tell from your pictures how deep the damage isgreat thread....

[Mark YPVS]

Hi Mate, if youre stuck for engine parts a have a R1 5PW (1st injection) lump 54000 miles sitting in the garage, long story short the previous owner bent the valves doing the shims/over tightened cam caps so motor wouldn't turn over, I got the R1 cheap and stuck another lump in it, let me know if any thing on it is any use to you?
Mark

[kebab19]

Personally I don't think its worth the risk, you may clear most bits of metal out but I'd always have a nagging doubt about missing one or six shards, which would eventually trash your extensive / expensive replacement parts.

[AyJay]

Hi Mate, if youre stuck for engine parts a have a R1 5PW (1st injection) lump 54000 miles sitting in the garage, long story short the previous owner bent the valves doing the shims/over tightened cam caps so motor wouldn't turn over, I got the R1 cheap and stuck another lump in it, let me know if any thing on it is any use to you?
Mark

Will do. Thanks!

[AyJay]

Personally I don't think its worth the risk, you may clear most bits of metal out but I'd always have a nagging doubt about missing one or six shards, which would eventually trash your extensive / expensive replacement parts.

That's the worry, kebab. It occurred to me that every ball bearing should be replaced. One tiny shard left in one and boom.

[AyJay]

Ok....I, ll start.. :rolleyes ...if its a keeper, then its worth it.rebuilding it is going to be expensive, but when you have finished you know what you, ve got, as apposed to a second hand lump, you dont know what its like on the inside......regarding the marks on the bores you might get away with honing them and fitting new rings, hard to tell from your pictures how deep the damage isgreat thread....

Cheers Red. I think it is a keeper. Funny how these things get under your skin. I never thought of myself as one of those crusty old guys like my neighbour who has had his old Triumph for 30 years, but I just can't get over how much I enjoy Fazer 1000s and keeping it going for decades really appeals. It's turning into a kind of Classic Motorcycle Mechanics rolling rebuild…

I'm off to the bike shop tomorrow to see what they think about the bores. Checking out rebore prices, the cost doesn't seem too catastrophic in itself, it's just when you add all the other bits up

[red98]

[quote author=red98 link=topic=11480.msg123391#msg123391 date=1390771184]
Ok....I, ll start.. :rolleyes ...if its a keeper, then its worth it.rebuilding it is going to be expensive, but when you have finished you know what you, ve got, as apposed to a second hand lump, you dont know what its like on the inside......regarding the marks on the bores you might get away with honing them and fitting new rings, hard to tell from your pictures how deep the damage isgreat thread....

Cheers Red. I think it is a keeper. Funny how these things get under your skin. I never thought of myself as one of those crusty old guys like my neighbour who has had his old Triumph for 30 years, but I just can't get over how much I enjoy Fazer 1000s and keeping it going for decades really appeals. It's turning into a kind of Classic Motorcycle Mechanics rolling rebuild…

I'm off to the bike shop tomorrow to see what they think about the bores. Checking out rebore prices, the cost doesn't seem too catastrophic in itself, it's just when you add all the other bits up
[/quote]






hi ayjay....have you checked out the price of a gasket set yet  :rolleyes [size=78%] [/size]

[limax2]

I never thought of myself as one of those crusty old guys like my neighbour who has had his old Triumph for 30 years,

"Crusty old guys" is it ?    I've had my 1974 Triumph Trident for 35 years, so what does that make me  .
Although it doesn't do anything as good as the Fazer I can't bring myself to getting shut of it for some reason.

[b1k3rdude]

@AyJay, you have a PM.

[pitternator]

As the fazer gets older and cheaper it does have the keeper effect , because you don't get much back if you sell it these days. Mods done years ago at some cost now have little value. So it tends to focus one on the hobby aspect of keeping the bike. My fazer has been a second bike since I bought it in 2008 for £3500. I bet I wud be lucky to get £2k for it now.So I am keeping it.The performance and versatility for such daft money is incredible.
BUT ...you must keep an economic head on, since its folly to spend big bucks on expensive engine repairs when indeed engines and whole bikes are so relatively cheap. Keep the bike going by all means, but not at any cost.

[AyJay]

This is true. I've always wanted to rebuild an engine though, so that's one of the main reasons for doing this, but you're right, spending too much is a not sound economics. Mind you, in 117,000 miles, I've spent 17 grand on petrol alone, so even a new engine is a drop in the ocean!


I took the crankcase to my local dealers to have the bores inspected and they didn't think the scoring was too much to worry about and  pointed out that the liners can't be rebored at anything like a decent cost anyway (pressed in liners, ultra hard coating on the bores), so the advice was to roughen up the surface with an emery cloth and put new rings on the pistons.


Since the gearbox only cost £75 and the engine was running like a champ otherwise (bar it being a bit heavy on oil), I think I'll do that and call it good.

[AyJay]

[quote author=AyJay link=topic=11480.msg123703#msg123703 date=1390866246]

I never thought of myself as one of those crusty old guys like my neighbour who has had his old Triumph for 30 years,

"Crusty old guys" is it ?    I've had my 1974 Triumph Trident for 35 years, so what does that make me  .
Although it doesn't do anything as good as the Fazer I can't bring myself to getting shut of it for some reason.
[/quote]


Ooops. Put me foot in it there….


Ahem.

[nick crisp]

Edited, as discovered question was redundant  :rolleyes

[lew600fazer]

Sorry lads bare with me are the liners/cylinders not wet liners, as in surely they can be pressed out and new liners fitted thereby keeping the standard size pistons etc! just a thought,