FZ1 2nd Generation Brakes upgrade

[Bikebud]

Hi all,


I bought a 2012 FZ1 S ABS a few weeks ago. I'm loving the bike, but not very impressed with the brakes. They are a bit spongy and take a bit of time and squeeze to stop the bike, although the pads are new and the fliud was replaced before I bought it.


What would be a good, relatively cheap upgrade? Thinking of putting some braded lines, but I dont think that would be enough.

[unfazed]

What pads did they use?
Is there much wear on the discs?

[Dudeofrude]

It depends what your coming from?
My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping power
Where as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your hand

Braided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do

[Bikebud]

What pads did they use?[/size]Is there much wear on the discs?

I dont know the pads they used, the service was done before I bought it. Good point about the disk, I'll check that.

It depends what your coming from?My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping powerWhere as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your handBraided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do

I've had quite a few bikes, but nothing with modern brakes or electronics. I guess I'm mainly comparing it to the STreet triple R and GSXR 750 I had, both from the same era and no Electronics. I'll look into installing braded hoses. Is switching to the R1 master cylender worth considering?

[Dudeofrude]

What pads did they use?[/size]Is there much wear on the discs?

I dont know the pads they used, the service was done before I bought it. Good point about the disk, I'll check that.

It depends what your coming from?My brakes are solid but like grabbing a brick. No feel but plenty of stopping powerWhere as if you try something more modern like a BMW with fancy electronic brakes then it has oodles of feel and is almost like having the brake disc in your handBraided hoses will make a decent difference especially when paired with new pads and a brake service. Thats about the best you can do

I've had quite a few bikes, but nothing with modern brakes or electronics. I guess I'm mainly comparing it to the STreet triple R and GSXR 750 I had, both from the same era and no Electronics. I'll look into installing braded hoses. Is switching to the R1 master cylender worth considering?

Some people have gone to the effort of swapping to a radial master cylinder but i honestly can't see the reward outweighing the effort ?‍♂️
Any idea when was the current master cylinder last serviced? Could be a possible solution?
As I say a set of braided hoses (£40), a bottle of fresh brake fluid, few cans of brake cleaner and an afternoon of your time would probably be the best bang for your buck
If after that your still not happy then you'll have to start looking into more extreme options ?

[Bikebud]

Sounds like a good sensible approach, thanks. I'll try my hand on that, once I'm done with installing LED indicators and tail tidy

[Dudeofrude]

No worries.
If your after some good braided lines that are reasonably priced then I'd recommend these

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130993253187

I replaced my old HEL ones with them a couple of weeks ago and the quality and finish is superb. Easily on par with HEL but I think around £20 cheaper for the front set

[ogri48]

They are good brakes normally for oe. Might be worth checking your discs. Even a tiny warp will push the pads back meaning every time you brake your lever will come back loads before they bite

[Gnasher]

Classic air in the system, symptoms.  ABS systems can be a bit of a pain at times, as they're more susceptible to micro air bubbles, because the fluid goes through more pipework with 90* angles, through a modulating pump and the amount of pumping required to bleed the system is a lot more.

Many who bleed them, do so too fast, which agitates the fluid and encourages micro bubbles to form, which get caught with the longer system and over time turn into larger bubbles giving you spongy feel at the lever.  As mentioned things like discs wear/warp will also give you similar symptoms, as can sticking pistons, which allows the pads to twist and flex giving you the same feel.

A quick check of the discs, pads will rule out the above, and point you towards air in the system.  It is possible you've got all of the above, so a good brake service by someone or yourself who knows what their doing, will sort the issue.       

[b1k3rdude]

A quick check of the discs, pads will rule out the above, and point you towards air in the system.  It is possible you've got all of the above, so a good brake service by someone or yourself who knows what their doing, will sort the issue.

Also another thing to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.

[Gnasher]

Also another try to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.

It's defiantly worth a try    It's not normally successful on ABS systems, once the air got into the pump, hopefully it's not 

[b1k3rdude]

It's defiantly worth a try. It's not normally successful on ABS systems, once the air got into the pump, hopefully it's not

I have had to do it twice on the 1250 and once on the 1200, both which had ABS. Both times I was doing a caliper or MC service that meant draining the system. And each time the system would never fully bleed and I always had a soft lever.

- 1200 took 2 days, so Sunday night, monday during the day while at work then again when I got home, and then it was perfect on Tuesday morning.
- 1250, last time was for a full caliper service  - rode the bike home during the week, pumped & tied back over night (then didn't ride the bike for a days, covid lockdown), then when when I rode it the next time the brakes were solid and sharp with hardly any lever movement (almost like new)
The 1250 atm is almost as sharp as the FZS, I replaced all old oem hoses with a braided HeL hose kit when I first bought the bike. that and having all 8 pistons moving massively helps with feel & power.

[Gnasher]

I have had to do it twice on the 1250 and once on the 1200, both which had ABS. Both times I was doing a caliper or MC service that meant draining the system. And each time the system would never fully bleed and I always had a soft lever.

- 1200 took 2 days, so Sunday night, monday during the day while at work then again when I got home, and then it was perfect on Tuesday morning.
- 1250, last time was for a full caliper service  - rode the bike home during the week, pumped & tied back over night (then didn't ride the bike for a days, covid lockdown), then when when I rode it the next time the brakes were solid and sharp with hardly any lever movement (almost like new)
The 1250 atm is almost as sharp as the FZS, I replaced all old oem hoses with a braided HeL hose kit when I first bought the bike. that and having all 8 pistons moving massively helps with feel & power.

Much depends on the type of pump and the pluming, some ABS units have bleed nipples on them as trapped air can be a real issue.  Glad you got yours sorted the old way mate 

[b1k3rdude]

Much depends on the type of pump and the pluming, some ABS units have bleed nipples on them as trapped air can be a real issue.  Glad you got yours sorted the old way mate

So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.

[Gnasher]

So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.

It's not quite as simple as generations mate, the following is based on my experience of working on them only.  As general guide the first systems were really pinched off cars, heavy often dual pumps, with printed circuit board electronics, Bosch was the main leader back then, first I worked on was a BMW late 80's.  Then came digital version, all much smaller, faster reacting, better pumps, senors etc etc, these just continue to evolve, which gives you various gens/versions within the type and they're still improving. These are now being overtaken by combined ABS/traction control systems, these have versions as well, early systems having separate electronics controlling each, to the norm and current systems that are joint.  Traction control is a whole other ball game and measures, speed, lean, throttle and gear position.  I've read they're also experimenting with traction control that can also apply the brakes (like in cars) but this is a very different kettle of fish with 2 wheels, I'm sure in time they'll crack it. 

Most manufactures don't make ABS units/system they buy them in, there's not many (at present) Bosch, Honda, Continental, ZF TRW, ATE and I think there's also a Chinese one but I've not worked on Chinese bikes so I don't know.  I'm reading that others are now also thinking of coming into the motorcycle ABS market Hitachi for one.

All systems have different design, strengths/weaknesses and then there's of course price.  To try and answer your question GSF and FZ1 have the same type non traction control, I don't know if the GSF is the same as FZ1 I've not worked on one.  Much is also dependant on where/how it's mounted on the bike, the more 90* bends, connections, ups downs etc the more they become susceptible to micro bubbles.  As mentioned some have bleed nipples on the module/pump or they have to be bled in a certain way.

I'm sure if you have a Google you can find, more and no doubt point me in the right direction       

[b1k3rdude]

Ah sorry my question was more towards is the ABS better and less agricultural than the one on the bandit.

[Gnasher]

Ah sorry my question was more towards is the ABS better and less agricultural than the one on the bandit.

I've not ridden a ABS GSF1250, so no real like for like comparison, the units I would say are matched and on a bench nothing in it.  That said it wouldn't be apples for apples GSF is something like 30kg heavier, smaller front discs, less sporty design etc etc.  Head to head in the real world on the road, I'd say, due to the FZ1 differences it would probably feel and work better, with better stopping distances in like for like conditions.     

[b1k3rdude]

Thanks Gnasher, nothing for it but a test tide in warm/dry conditions etc. And/or more research.

[Bikebud]

Also another thing to try and I had to do this on my ABS Bandit GSF 1250 after it was serviced by a shop was pump and cable-tie the brake lever back to the bar for 2 evenings. The brakes on my 1250 are now as sharp as the brakes were on my FZS.

I going to attempt this. Do i need to loosend the fluid reservior cover first?

[ogri48]

[quote author=b1k3rdude link=topic=26278.msg317024#msg317024 date=1593294131]
So if we say that the GSF1250/1200 has first gen ABS, what gen does the FZ1 have? I ask because the ABS on the bandit is clunky at best, where as the ABS on my cousins Honda SH300 scouter by comparison was very controlled and had a much smoother action.

It's not quite as simple as generations mate, the following is based on my experience of working on them only.  As general guide the first systems were really pinched off cars, heavy often dual pumps, with printed circuit board electronics, Bosch was the main leader back then, first I worked on was a BMW late 80's.  Then came digital version, all much smaller, faster reacting, better pumps, senors etc etc, these just continue to evolve, which gives you various gens/versions within the type and they're still improving. These are now being overtaken by combined ABS/traction control systems, these have versions as well, early systems having separate electronics controlling each, to the norm and current systems that are joint.  Traction control is a whole other ball game and measures, speed, lean, throttle and gear position.  I've read they're also experimenting with traction control that can also apply the brakes (like in cars) but this is a very different kettle of fish with 2 wheels, I'm sure in time they'll crack it. 

Most manufactures don't make ABS units/system they buy them in, there's not many (at present) Bosch, Honda, Continental, ZF TRW, ATE and I think there's also a Chinese one but I've not worked on Chinese bikes so I don't know.  I'm reading that others are now also thinking of coming into the motorcycle ABS market Hitachi for one.

All systems have different design, strengths/weaknesses and then there's of course price.  To try and answer your question GSF and FZ1 have the same type non traction control, I don't know if the GSF is the same as FZ1 I've not worked on one.  Much is also dependant on where/how it's mounted on the bike, the more 90* bends, connections, ups downs etc the more they become susceptible to micro bubbles.  As mentioned some have bleed nipples on the module/pump or they have to be bled in a certain way.

I'm sure if you have a Google you can find, more and no doubt point me in the right direction     
[/quote]
interesting read that Gnasher, cheers dude  :thumbup :thumbup