(19-06-20, 12:14 PM)Trebus link Wrote: How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.
yes thats an option i had in mind , known as a dowty bolt, im sure it would work but would take longer to drain and might not empty sump completley as its a bolt within a bolt so it will hold onto more oil than the bolt removed. plus the complication of holding the origional nut still whilst undoing the inesrted bolt at the same time and then same thing doing back up
also gnasher, your point about the weep will ineviably get worse is true, so i will look to permanently stop it up with some bonding agent etc once it gets to the point where it is worse.
your other point about properly draining so that you are removing as much old oil as possible is also a very good point , which is exactly why you need to get as much out as possible, i definitley got 3.5 litres of old oil out, which is what the manual says oil & filetr 3.5 litres req .
however a dry engine following rebuild takes 4.2 litres. this must mean then that you can never remove the remaining old 0.7 litres from any style of oil drain so there is always .7l of old oil kicking around in your engine stuck in places that it cannot drain back to the sump . no way to remove 100% of all oil without disembly.
i think 3.5 is the max you can get out and just as long as thats what you can get out , this pump method is equal to a conventional drian. you cant drain anymore out than you can pump out.
re ptfe tape , yep its worth a try next oil change, along with a new bolt etc, but in the process of removing and retightening the threads may become worse as a result , then my weep could become a worse drip, then im worse off pushing me into a sump change. theres no way of pre knowing that outcome.
definitley worth a go if my current weep gets worse as it is , which ,one day its bound to , then ive nothing to loose
(19-06-20, 10:57 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316573#msg316573 date=1592560073]
I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.
Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads. The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads.
[/quote]
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
(19-06-20, 10:29 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread.
PTFE, wont compress enough, and if the threads are damaged it could be the straw the broke the camels back so to speak, it wont take the heat very well and start leaking. Use the above mentioned, just make sure it's head gasket silicon sealant, not your bath stuff that wont take the heat either.
[quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress :rolleyes This is a bolt on a motorbike :rolleyes
(19-06-20, 10:21 AM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=Gnasher link=topic=26267.msg316564#msg316564 date=1592557400]
[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316554#msg316554 date=1592554895]
Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.
That's your choice mate :rolleyes But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will. New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10.
Quote: I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Nope, crows foot spanner
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I just noticed you can get a couple of washers for about £2.60 on Ebay.
That's very weird you should mention a 'crows foot' spanner because i stumbled on them early this morning (not even sure how?) and i was trying to think of a scenario where they would be useful?
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?
[/quote]
Those crows foot spanners can be handy, just remember that to use your normally calibrated torque wrench with one that you have to put it on at 90 degrees to the wrench. If you put it on in line with the wrench then you are increasing the length of the torque wrench by up to two inches, this means the calibration is now out. A rough guide is at a setting of 100 lbs ft the now extended wrench is now really operating at 110 lbs ft.
Just something to bear in mind when torquing up something like a sump bolt.
(19-06-20, 06:35 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress :rolleyes This is a bolt on a motorbike :rolleyes
(19-06-20, 06:28 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: PTFE, wont compress enough, and if the threads are damaged it could be the straw the broke the camels back so to speak, it wont take the heat very well and start leaking.
Not so- It Works as a deformable filler and thread lubricant, helping to seal the joint without hardening or making it more difficult to tighten, and instead making it easier to tighten.
Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(19-06-20, 12:33 PM)butthead link Wrote: also gnasher, your point about the weep will ineviably get worse is true, so i will look to permanently stop it up with some bonding agent etc once it gets to the point where it is worse.
your other point about properly draining so that you are removing as much old oil as possible is also a very good point , which is exactly why you need to get as much out as possible, i definitley got 3.5 litres of old oil out, which is what the manual says oil & filetr 3.5 litres req .
however a dry engine following rebuild takes 4.2 litres. this must mean then that you can never remove the remaining old 0.7 litres from any style of oil drain so there is always .7l of old oil kicking around in your engine stuck in places that it cannot drain back to the sump . no way to remove 100% of all oil without disembly.
i think 3.5 is the max you can get out and just as long as thats what you can get out , this pump method is equal to a conventional drian. you cant drain anymore out than you can pump out.
What manual are you reading?
It's a 2.5 litre sump, or I use 2.8 litres with a filter change as well.
My window is not see through any more so I have to use measurements.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(19-06-20, 07:18 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
You crack on then mate, it's your choice, its you that's going to be sorting out the mess, when it comes to undoing it. [size=78%] [/size]
(20-06-20, 09:29 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=26267.msg316645#msg316645 date=1592590682]
Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
You crack on then mate, it's your choice, its you that's going to be sorting out the mess, when it comes to undoing it. [size=78%] [/size]
[/quote]What mess.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(20-06-20, 09:32 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: What mess.
Put some on your drain bolt, ride around for 8k change the oil and you'll find out
Mate, the advice I freely offer here is based on years of working on bike both as an owner and as a business, if you don't want to take it that's your choice. [size=78%] [/size]
(20-06-20, 10:40 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=26267.msg316661#msg316661 date=1592641945]
What mess.
Put some on your drain bolt, ride around for 8k change the oil and you'll find out
Mate, the advice I freely offer here is based on years of working on bike both as an owner and as a business, if you don't want to take it that's your choice. [size=78%] [/size]
[/quote]Yes I appreciate your experience and that is why I am asking. What do you mean by mess.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(20-06-20, 10:52 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: Yes I appreciate your experience and that is why I am asking. What do you mean by mess.
As with everything there's PTFE and there's PTFE, it's main application is as a pipe seal white water, yellow gas, green for O2 and I think there's a few others for specific applications. It's designed to fit and forget pretty much i.e. not being undone at regular intervals.
The most common is white, when used on sump bolts it turns into a stringy oil soaked mess, depending on how much is put on (most over do it) half is left in the sump thread, the reminder spread on the bolt or strings off it, as said a mess. If you don't mind all that, happy days.
The real point is if the sump blot is leaking something is wrong, my advice fix it properly, wrapping PTFE around it is a bodge, one which often doesn't work.
It does not matter whether the torque is 10lbs ft or 1000lbs ft, the true torque value will be affected. There is a reason why so many people strip the thread in their sumps or crack the sump.When people put the sump bolt back in, even if they have cleaned the thread on the bolt, there is still oil on the thread in the sump.
It does not matter whether the torque is 10lbs ft or 1000lbs ft, the true torque value will be affected. There is a reason why so many people strip the thread in their sumps or crack the sump.When people put the sump bolt back in, even if they have cleaned the thread on the bolt, there is still oil on the thread in the sump.
That's strange because there's another guide I've posted on here before that says engine oil is one of the few things that won't affect torque settings?
That aside I still think the main reason is just over tightening from being a bit over zealous due to people not being able to use a standard torque wrench on that bolt.
The wall of the sump plate is much longer than i realised after searching for a photo, and it shows that every thread of the OEM bolt gets used up.
Kind of strange why the newer magnetic ones were made half the size, and explains why they strip the fine threads too.
It does also explain that if a new OEM bolt was used it could highly likely solve the leaking as the deeper threads may still be intact.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
