So I thought id share my experience with you as an example of necessity is the mother of invention or in truth borne out of a cock up on my part.
I have a fzs600 2001 its really my winter hack bike , done a few oil changes but on my last one just over a year back I messed up and overtightened the sump plug, resulting in some stripped threads as it weeps but no more than weeps oil past the threads, were talking 3-4 teaspoons over 10-14 days so perfectly livaeble with for a winter hack. I had the idea of helicoil but you cant helicoil in situ and if you are taking the sump pan off may as well buy a second hand sump pan with plug from a breaker . So that was my origional option.
Trouble is ,as you know, you cant take the sump off without removing the exhaust, ok if your header bolts are going to play ball.
Mine certainly werent.
Mine had clearly been off once before at least and fought back in the process duly snapping off as was evident by the shortened stumps and motley collection of ugly nuts and studs, so I was not keen to mess with that !
So how else can you do an oil change without draining ?
Well if you take off the cluch cover , underneath the clutch drum are two slots about 9 mm slots around 20mm long, these allow fresh oil put in to drain back into the sump.
If you can lean the bike over the opposite way to the side stand and about the same lean as on the side stand all the oil comes to that side of the bike.
I got a 12v syphon pump for oil and used 8 mm clear pipe and using the two slots fed the pipe into the sump and moved it around as much as you can and syphoned 3.5 litres of old oil out the same as the manual says to put in following oil & filter change , of cousre I changed the filter too.
Its a bit of a pfaff setting the bike up to do it but its a once a year job and just as sucesful as traditional drain , I got the same qty of oil out as I would have, got to live with the origional sump weep but a weep is all it is.
Just thought id show how I overcame my initial idiocy with the origional overtightening.
Taking off the exhaust to change sump pan would have proded the “satan of stud bolts” im certain to shear opening the worse of all jobs to tackle.with rusty weak already stumps of header bolts !
Leave well alone !
Mate you could have saved all that faff, car vacuum oil changer, through the oil filler cap. To lean the bike over to the right, apply and secure the front brake lever and tied downs or quality tow rope will do, through the top frame/top yoke and onto a a secure point on a wall, works a treat
(18-06-20, 01:02 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: Mate you could have saved all that faff, car vacuum oil changer, through the oil filler cap. To lean the bike over to the right, apply and secure the front brake lever and tied downs or quality tow rope will do, through the top frame/top yoke and onto a a secure point on a wall, works a treat
its kind of what i have done really pretty much what youve suggested but you need to get all of the old oil out for sure, even if you laid the bike flat on its side the oil will fill the clutch case to a degree the ony faff i did on top of your suggestion was to remove a cover 8 bolts. other than that its the same.
this at least lets me get a pipe in to the sump pan wriggle it around so i know for sure its all out , i think the extra 8 bolts are worth it to be certain its fully drained.
(18-06-20, 01:56 PM)Trebus link Wrote: Couldn’t you fit an oversize tapered sump plug in situ? There might be a bit of swarf but should be able to get most of it out with a flush.
there would be swarf for sure and you need to be sure when your doing 80mph + that the swarf isnt about to give your engine a seize, how would know it was all out? its a guess even post flush. this is a safer way around it.
What about just putting some ptft tape on the thread, being carefull not to get it on the engine end - just keep it on the nut end.A thought on getting all the oil out when - you cant get all the oil out is to syphon what you can through the filler and the top up with the cheapest you can find and use that as a wash then syphon that out along with the remaining old stuff.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(18-06-20, 04:41 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=butthead link=topic=26267.msg316525#msg316525 date=1592492350]
was to remove a cover 8 bolts.
That's the whole point you don't have to remove the clutch cover :rolleyes
[/quote]
how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
19-06-20, 05:37 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-20, 05:49 AM by darrsi.)
Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(18-06-20, 09:51 PM)butthead link Wrote: how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
19-06-20, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-20, 08:19 AM by darrsi.)
(19-06-20, 08:02 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up. Plus due to the location of it it's the easiest thing to do.
In the highly unlikely event it was to loosen (which it won't) then you would see oil on the floor so just nip it up again, but it just will not happen anyway.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(19-06-20, 08:14 AM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=26267.msg316548#msg316548 date=1592550142]
Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
[/quote]Thought the idea of a crush washer was to help seal as it spreads out -- ?
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(19-06-20, 08:02 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
It just might that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd Nm
(19-06-20, 08:14 AM)darrsi link Wrote: No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up.
No mate, the threads don't seal the washer does and there is load on it, by definition it's a washer, washer's spread load in this case 40 odd Nm forming the seal. Also there're 2 types of sump bolt/plug washer you'll find, 1 is the crush type i.e. it requires an amount of crush (40 odd Nm) for it to from a mating/sealing surface and should be used only once, 2 flat type, which is soft steel, copper or aluminium, some older bikes had fibre, the flat type hardens in use, can be reused but should be anneled, but there's a limit. Fibre is not used these days, especially where different metals are used ally sump, steel bolt or vice versa as the expand and contract at different rates, then leak. Old Brit bikes and cars!
Both crush/flat types will leak if over tighten i.e. nipping up, yes once may be, but if it's leaking at the correct torque the washer had it and/or the sump mating surface is damaged. Reuse of the washer and nipping up is what causes this chaps problem in the fist place i.e. washer gets distorted, leaks, nip up, mating surfaces get damaged it leaks, nip it up threads stretch, less torque on the washer it leaks, nip it up threads strip :rolleyes
19-06-20, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-20, 09:52 AM by darrsi.)
(19-06-20, 08:48 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=26267.msg316548#msg316548 date=1592550142]
Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
It just might that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd Nm
(19-06-20, 08:14 AM)darrsi link Wrote: No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up.
No mate, the threads don't seal the washer does and there is load on it, by definition it's a washer, washer's spread load in this case 40 odd Nm forming the seal. Also there're 2 types of sump bolt/plug washer you'll find, 1 is the crush type i.e. it requires an amount of crush (40 odd Nm) for it to from a mating/sealing surface and should be used only once, 2 flat type, which is soft steel, copper or aluminium, some older bikes had fibre, the flat type hardens in use, can be reused but should be anneled, but there's a limit. Fibre is not used these days, especially where different metals are used ally sump, steel bolt or vice versa as the expand and contract at different rates, then leak. Old Brit bikes and cars!
Both crush/flat types will leak if over tighten i.e. nipping up, yes once may be, but if it's leaking at the correct torque the washer had it and/or the sump mating surface is damaged. Reuse of the washer and nipping up is what causes this chaps problem in the fist place i.e. washer gets distorted, leaks, nip up, mating surfaces get damaged it leaks, nip it up threads stretch, less torque on the washer it leaks, nip it up threads strip :rolleyes
[/quote]
Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher. Nipping up works just fine on this particular bolt, as long as you're not heavy handed, which i'm not due to working with sensitive screws on film cameras at work.
It's blindingly obvious that the main cause of stripping the thread on the sump is caused by over tightening it, mostly because you can't get a socket on it (or normal torque wrench), and it's in a slightly awkward place which results in people wrenching hard on a ring spanner or even giving it a tap with a hammer too, which after a few times will take its toll on the sump thread and the hex head as well if not careful.
There's not too much science behind all this, it's just a hole in a bowl with a bolt in it stopping the oil from coming out.
I will agree that a crush washer in this particular case would not be a greatest idea at all due to the slightly extra force needed to crush it which would stress out dodgy threads even more.
Personally i would only ever use the flat washer type due to the mentioned sealing properties.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Maybe your version of nipping up is being heavy handed, but my version is not.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(19-06-20, 07:32 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=butthead link=topic=26267.msg316542#msg316542 date=1592513490]
how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
[/quote]
fair enough mate , youve clearly done this a couple of times before, so i will next time see if i can do as youre doing then and leave the clutch cover on, as you say to lean the bike back a bit also makes sense as the sump pan has baffle walls and those will stop some oil getting to the places you need to to drain but by slightly lifting back it will allow it flow through to where you need to get at it via the filler. more than wiling to try your way as you say its a litle less work.
(19-06-20, 09:52 AM)butthead link Wrote: [quote author=Gnasher link=topic=26267.msg316546#msg316546 date=1592548358]
[quote author=butthead link=topic=26267.msg316542#msg316542 date=1592513490]
how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
[/quote]
fair enough mate , you've clearly done this a couple of times before, so i will next time see if i can do as youre doing then and leave the clutch cover on, as you say to lean the bike back a bit also makes sense as the sump pan has baffle walls and those will stop some oil getting to the places you need to to drain but by slightly lifting back it will allow it flow through to where you need to get at it via the filler. more than wiling to try your way as you say its a litle less work.
[/quote]
There you go.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(19-06-20, 05:37 AM)darrsi link Wrote: Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd Nm