02-05-20, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-20, 07:26 PM by Stretchah.)
Hi all,
I got my FZS 600 a few years ago and in the first 2 years went from 25k to 60k mainly commuting, but, it's such a good allrounder...love the bike and it's run like a dream. Unfortunately, about a year ago I was riding in some seriously heavy rain on the way to a mates and it started to bog down badly and I was having to give it quite a lot of gas to even keep it running. It got worse the further I went, made it to my mates and left it outside, but, then had to get the AA home.
When I got home I tried to start it and it would start and run but was back firing and getting worse all the time. At one point you had to give it a handful to even keep it running and then it was backfiring alot and just trying to die.
I felt the pipes and no.2 was cold...I then ran it only when testing things. I put new plugs in, changed the coils although that would generally effect 2 cylinders not 1. I've tested most things and also Swapped out the CDI unit, installed a new Stator and pick up coil (I had a similar issue once on a GPZ900 and it was pick up coils).
I also tried to test the compression and it was low ish on all but then I wasn't able to warm it up, bu,t it was around the same level on each. So I think that's probably fine.
The bike now won't start or run at all...it got that bad it just stopped.
I tend to think it's electrical as it seems ot have got worse over a period of time, but, can't think what else to check...
I do get a fairly healthy spark and have given the carbs a going over with cleaner and checked the diaphragm on No.2. The Fuel pump sounds like it's priming fine too.
I tired to use some different petrol too, but, still won't start, she turns over nicely though and I even got her a new battery.
Any ideas on what else it could be? I've searched on her and can't find anything that seems similar, Am I missing something?
03-05-20, 07:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-20, 07:18 AM by darrsi.)
You mention heavy rain. Mate of mine had a 600 years ago and rode home from an army base in Germany but once he got back here it wouldn't start again for him.
He took it to a bike shop and they found that there was a leaking seal on the fuel cap, and they pulled about a pint of water out of the tank.
As the bike hasn't moved, i would gently get it up on the centre stand and start by draining the carbs using the carb drain screws. Once settled petrol will float on water, so if there is any water it should settle at the bottom of the tank. This is why is said "gently" get the bike up on the stand.
Obviously you then need to see what comes out of the drain screws.
The fact you cleaned the carbs won't make much difference if they are then being fed with watery fuel.
And get a decent good fitting screwdriver that fits the drain screw slot very well as they are very soft material, and you don't want to start sheering the heads off them.
It's where i would start anyway.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
its looking like fuel.
you said that you tried new fuel but even if you drained the fuel from the tank there would still be a good amount in the fuel pump + lines
- remove the fuel line carb side and put it in a suitable CLEAN container then turn ignition on to prime the pump and it should throw it into the container and you can see if it is a fuel water mix (i use coffee jars a lot for this)
have you tried spraying easy start etc into the airbox to see if you get any pop pop bang bang :lol [size=78%] ?[/size] [/size]
To add, just in case: if the battery works OK, after many unsuccessful starts, carbs can get too much fuel. Starting it a few times (1 or so seconds on the ignition button) without any choke, or throttle, can help clear the extra fuel out (or water, whatever it is in this case ).
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
Cheers guys, some great points there
I've been checking things over again this morning and the plugs don't seem to be getting wet?
Although the pump is pumping (I removed the carb side pipe to see that) and the float bowls are filling.
If I remove a plug and put my finger over the hole I can feel the compression when I crank it over too.
I did try to spray carb cleaner up the intake but I may need to try that with the air box lid off and the filter out?
I haven't checked whether it's watery fuel as it just doesn't seem to be reaching the plugs? Which jus to doesn't make any sense to me...
just a quick double check
you say you gave the carbs a good going over with cleaner
did you have all the jets out etc and blast through all the passageways with carbcleaner/compressed air ??
ive been sent carbs to ultrasonic / sodablast / bench setup that have been "cleaned" and was internally a mess before now
The filter and pipe look fine and the fuel is getting into the carb bowls...I'm getting suction at the carb mouths too but just can't work out why the plugs would be bone dry....I blew through the Jets etc when I cleaned the carbs and didn't see any sign of dirt inside... can't think of anything else it could be though apart from the carbs, but, also seems strange that it's affecting all of them not just 1?
(03-05-20, 02:55 PM)darrsi link Wrote: What about a blocked air vent in the fuel tank?
Try and start it with the fuel cap slightly open. Probably best on the centre stand again. (NO NAKED FLAMES and PLEASE BE CAREFUL)
If you open the filler cap and there's a rush of air, it's likely when you've removed the tank to replace the coils etc you've trapped the breather pipe from the tank very common this if you don't know about it.
Your problem could be a few things, the coils possibly, HT lead more like, even a cracked plug/s will do what you had in the wet. What was the weather like other than raining was it cold like below 5C?
I've tried with the cap open and makes no difference...the fuel is getting to the carbs as drained them and they've refilled, but, spark plugs are still dry as a bone....even took the ht lead off one and then turned it over a few times in case ignition was burning the fuel but at the wrong time...plug was still bone dry...
I've sprayed carb cleaner everywhere to test for leaks but nothing and sprayed it into cylinder no.1 directly to see if it would bang, but, nothing....may have another look at the carbs or top end...
Plugs or spark is easy to test, pop out all the plug's, refit into the caps, make sure plugs are touching the cam cover, darken/turn the light off in the garage or do it at night if outside, hit the starter you'll see each plug spark. You can do the same to check if the caps/leads are arching, just don't take the caps off the plugs.
If you've not got a spark at every plug swap them with one that is sparking, no spark it's either the lead, very common where they enter the coil or the cap, swap the cap. Once all are sparking it's then point at fuel. If as you say the plugs are bone dry, it's either the no fuel the the carb/s, pump, tap, filter or the metering valve/float is stuck, blocked. If there's fuel in the bowls it's more than likely the pilot jets.
A couple of weeks ago I had the carbs out three times cleaning, checking, cleaning again. Finally got it running nicely and balanced etc. Fast forward one week, rather than leave it several weeks, I started the bike again to find it was only running on 3 again.
Today I took the carbs out and found #4 bowl full of crap again with the jets blocked again. Time to drain the tank and fit a new filter I think
(03-05-20, 04:40 PM)BBROWN1664 link Wrote: A couple of weeks ago I had the carbs out three times cleaning, checking, cleaning again. Finally got it running nicely and balanced etc. Fast forward one week, rather than leave it several weeks, I started the bike again to find it was only running on 3 again.
Today I took the carbs out and found #4 bowl full of crap again with the jets blocked again. Time to drain the tank and fit a new filter I think
Which filter are you on about to change?
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
This is something you could try. Ive done it before to kick an engine into life.
Youll need an extra pair of hands, old spark plugs (optional) two spark plug sockets and a small blowtorch. And good gloves.
What you do is simply heat the end of the spark plugs,, and only the end. And the quicker you do it the better it works. That's where the second pair of hands comes in, one each side of engine.
Take plugs out and heat just the end of the plug, Not Red Hot , but get them fairly hot as you want the still to be hot when you put them back in. As I said the quicker you get them in the better. Take care not to over tighten plugs when putting them in !!! at this point they just have to be IN , slightly loose by a turn wont matter at this point , as you just want to keep heat in the plugs to try and start the engine.
Have the choke set to half open, and no throttle in the first instance. Only throttle if she fires.
Have a wee try to see how quick you can put plugs back in and remember they don't have to be exactly tightened. If you use an old set of plugs , youll change them back to good ones . You can while plugs are heating put a small amount of grease around plug holes just to help putting them in when they are hot. REMEMBER when applying heat to plugs, only the very end of the plug, You can hit the first couple of threads but try not too. I have done this in the past and it works. If you can keep the heat in the plug , it gives the impression you are starting a warm engine. And so if you apply a spark to heat, if there is any fuel in any of those bores it will fire.
I used to use one of those portable gas cookers as you can place the plugs around the flame. And on this to give some idea of heat required ,at least 5 mins on a portable gas cooker. If you try this and get no fire in any cylinder then defenetly no fuel is getting in there.
Then going back a bit you said this problem started after being out in the rain. Is something electrical killing the engine.
Well I hope you give this a try, and if she fires remember she might be rough so don't throttle to much as choke is half open.
What is the history of the air filter, have you changed it yourself yet, or do you know when it might have been last changed?
If you're not sure and it was previously changed for a poor quality one there is always the small chance that it's totally clogged up!
I bought a poor quality air filter many years ago that made the bike run terrible, like it was being choked, and that was from new condition. I changed it after a few days for a K&N and the difference was like night and day.
So if you haven't tried it already, i would remove it then give it another try at starting the bike while it's out, plus also check the air filter box just in case it's clogged up with any emulsified oil, which will look like liquid honeycomb.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
04-05-20, 06:25 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-20, 06:39 AM by darrsi.)
I posted this a few days ago for someone else, and as it's ignition related you may as well read it and try it too, it'll be something else to cross off the list, and you never know, it may even help!
[size=1em]"...I was having trouble starting my bike for ages, maybe even up to two years, and some days it would be fine but other days it would cause all sorts of pain. The main thing was backfiring in colder climates. The problem with that was that i used to park my bike right next to our glass fronted reception at work, and it used to scare the crap out of the receptionists with a massive bang before it turned over, then it would run sweet as a nut.[/size]
[size=1em]Over time i replaced electrical parts, plugs, clipped HT leads, bypassed the side stand switch, etc, but it still quite randomly misbehaved.[/size]
[size=1em]One evening i had the same shit happen again but after starting it i rode off but it then conked out after about a minute. After eventually getting it started again and getting home the way the engine had just died immediately as if the key was turned off led me down a new search on the internet, and it was suggested that the ignition switch could be the fault.[/size]
[size=1em]Over a long time i had used WD40, graphite powder, and even oil to try and lube the ignition, but also learned that it wasn't just a simple on/off switch, it consisted of several contacts in the barrel that got connected.[/size]
[size=1em]So i already had a can of electrical contact cleaner at home and decided to saturate the hell out of the ignition barrel, also using the key to move things about a bit as well while still using the spray.[/size]
[size=1em]It TOTALLY sorted it out. As simple as that, it was dirty contacts in the barrel caused by many different things i'd tried over the years, presumably causing a paste or congealing inside, which got worse in colder weather or could be unpredictable if rain got down there, it obviously moved things about a bit then just dried up again, which was why it was so hit and miss. [/size]
[size=1em]Worth knowing for future reference anyway, reading your post earlier brought it all back to me.[/size]
[size=1em]Just drench it in proper Electrical Contact Cleaner Spray, but NOT a degreaser spray which will dry it out too much and will likely leave a powdery residue, and not WD40 which is a bit too oily and will eventually attract dust..." [/size]
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(03-05-20, 02:05 PM)Stretchah link Wrote: The filter and pipe look fine and the fuel is getting into the carb bowls...I'm getting suction at the carb mouths too but just can't work out why the plugs would be bone dry....I blew through the Jets etc when I cleaned the carbs and didn't see any sign of dirt inside... can't think of anything else it could be though apart from the carbs, but, also seems strange that it's affecting all of them not just 1?
When you say "blew through" if the pilot jets are blocked no amount of blowing will clear them. Is there fuel in all the float bowls? Also check the air intake for the air box, another very common fault is things being sucked in like rag etc.
(04-05-20, 09:09 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: [quote author=Stretchah link=topic=26120.msg313831#msg313831 date=1588511148]
The filter and pipe look fine and the fuel is getting into the carb bowls...I'm getting suction at the carb mouths too but just can't work out why the plugs would be bone dry....I blew through the Jets etc when I cleaned the carbs and didn't see any sign of dirt inside... can't think of anything else it could be though apart from the carbs, but, also seems strange that it's affecting all of them not just 1?
When you say "blew through" if the pilot jets are blocked no amount of blowing will clear them. Is there fuel in all the float bowls? Also check the air intake for the air box, another very common fault is things being sucked in like rag etc.
[/quote]
im with gnasher here, jets need to be removed and inspected then blocked holes cleaned through with a piece of wire. the blowing through is just for all the passageways that you cant see through just to see what happens and to check nothing is blocking a passageway.
especially checking the air feeds on the carb inlets. - i dont have any carbs here to do a quick pic
