Great interview

[VNA]

I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.

No.  I’m pro EU.  I voted to REMAIN.    I wanted the UK to vote to remain.  This is a disaster.  But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.

[fazersharp]

I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.

No.  I’m pro EU.  I voted to REMAIN.    I wanted the UK to vote to remain.  This is a disaster.  But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.

Yes I thick you miss read - or I wasn't clear. I said your anti leave stance - trying to mean your pro EU stay position. Its clear that you do not want to leave the EU but I get the inpression that your agenda in wanting to stay in the EU is to use it as a tool by which scotland can then argue to leave the uk.

[fazersharp]

SO

infrastructure and services owned by foreign companies,
neoliberal agenda and ordinary working people have been disadvantaged.
The obsession with private money and self-regulation
Our public housing stock has largely gone,
Many moan about the benefits budget in the UK, a huge proportion of which goes on housing benefits.
biggest benefits claimants are the stinking rich private DHS slum landlords. 
Having destroyed our industry, destroyed our unions, sold our homes, privatised our infrastructure, the working man is left a prisoner to his inflated mortgage or rent and zero hours contracts
deeply flawed and immoral foreign policy and arms sales
We are being short changed by big business to the tune of billions upon billions of pounds
successive incompetent self-serving UK governments.

And I could go on.
What you say sounds about right but what makes you think that a independent scotland (run from Brussels ) will be any better, how will you ever get to this utopia scotland. 

[Graham53]

I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.

No.  I’m pro EU.  I voted to REMAIN.    I wanted the UK to vote to remain.  This is a disaster.  But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.

What then when your oil dries up, gas is gone you're getting fracked gas from the states , take a look at Greece that'll be Scotland
I think we should have a vote in England to see if we still want Scotland part of Britain , why did they get to decide if they want to be part of Britain and we didn't get to say if we wanted them.
I think I read somewhere that for every £100 The Scottish parliament gets it spends £130 then let em stay/join the eu theyll need a bail out more times than Greece

[fazersharp]

[quote author=VNA link=topic=21503.msg247460#msg247460 date=1481375105]

I wonder how much of your anti leave stance is because you see it by way of a means to which scotland can argue having another go at leaving the UK.

No.  I’m pro EU.  I voted to REMAIN.    I wanted the UK to vote to remain.  This is a disaster.  But the fact is Scotland has voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU, so one would expect the Scottish Government to do all it can to ensure - if at all possible - that Scotland does indeed REMAIN in the EU.

What then when your oil dries up, gas is gone you're getting fracked gas from the states , take a look at Greece that'll be Scotland
I think we should have a vote in England to see if we still want Scotland part of Britain , why did they get to decide if they want to be part of Britain and we didn't get to say if we wanted them.
I think I read somewhere that for every £100 The Scottish parliament gets it spends £130 then let em stay/join the eu theyll need a bail out more times than Greece
[/quote]
Agreed - but only Greece without the nice weather, oh but first scotland should pay us back the money we spent on bailing out RBS

[mtread]

I think you will find that the RBS group of banks includes National Westminster and Coutts (the posh persons' bank used by the Queen). Perhaps it should be the other way round.

[Graham53]

Didn't we have to already bail out a bankrupt Scotland once before ?

[VNA]

You know some of your comments remind of about ten years ago or so when Gordon Brown congratulated Montenegro on its independence and stated that he saw no reason why they could not become a successful independent nation.
Yet the same Gordon Brown, like some of you here, say Scotland is a basket case.  It’s somewhat arrogant and just a little pathetic.

As for oil and gas, economies need to break away from oil and gas.  Germany already has a bill to ban the sale of fossil fuelled cars by 2030. 

In any case I’m not interested in whether Scotland would be richer or poorer post-independence.  I mean the UK is one of the richest countries in the world but it’s pretty fucked up.  The US is even richer again, but it’s even more fucked up.

What you say sounds about right but what makes you think that a independent scotland (run from Brussels ) will be any better, how will you ever get to this utopia scotland.

Because all that stuff I’ve listed, we never voted for it and we never wanted it.  There is a huge rift politically between England and Scotland, we’ve grown apart.

Agreed - but only Greece without the nice weather, oh but first scotland should pay us back the money we spent on bailing out RBS

RBS is a London based bank.  The Tory ideal of self-regulation worked well – eh?  And why was it bailed it out.  Capitalism dictates the survival of the fittest, if your business is sick and you don’t fix it, it goes under - simple - except......  Bailing out the banks was just another example of what I call the new socialism – it’s the socialism for the rich. 

Yes I thick you miss read - or I wasn't clear.

No I understood your question and I think I answered it clearly.

[lew600fazer]

If Scotland seek to gain independence and try to gain re entry into the EU, Spain will veto that application.

[Graham53]

Nooooooooool please don't start up the brexit debate again  :wall
Just when I thought it was safe to log on again  :lol

[VNA]

 

If Scotland seek to gain independence and try to gain re entry into the EU, Spain will veto that application.

I think you are missing the point Lew.  Scotland voted decisively to REMAIN in the EU.  Clearly, the Scottish government must respect the result of the referendum, and as such will do everything within it’s powers to see that Scotland does indeed remain within the EU. 

If there is not a BREXIT settlement that does not give Scotland access to the single market, and does not pass powers to Scotland that previously came under EU membership then there is a possibility of a second referendum on Independence.

Obviously it’s up to the UK government to respect and accommodate all members of the United Kingdom .
But the key point that you are missing is that currently Scotland is a member of the EU, SCOTS law, our economy etc etc are fully integrated into the EU.

Scotland will not seek to “gain re entry into the EU” as you put it, but rather to continue it’s membership.

[mtread]

(Unfortunately) it's also up to the UK government whether to allow another Scottish independence referendum.

[lew600fazer]

Scotland is not a member of the EU.
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and so does not have separate membership.
So VNA you are missing the point.
Spain has already stated it WILL block any attempt by an Independent Scotland to join the EU.

[Graham53]

Scotland is not a member of the EU.
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and so does not have separate membership.
So VNA you are missing the point.
Spain has already stated it WILL block any attempt by an Independent Scotland to join the EU.

Well said
Just a few figures for the Scots to peruse before attempting to join the eu
2.9million eu nationals living in the U.K.
1.2million.uk nationals in Europe (27 other countries)
That's 444,444.444 to 1 all needing employment , housing , health treatment etc
181,000 of those are living in Scotland (Scottish parliament published figures from 2015)
That's 2,719,000 difference how about they all upped sticks to Scotland
Foreign born population of wales risen by 82% in 10 years , wales also voted leave , coincidence???
Let's imagine Scotland leaves uk , joins Europe , they won't get money from us under the Barnett formula which is outdated and needs reforming , ok they get oil revenue and tax receipts but what about when the oil runs out? No oil workers means less tax receipts.
What about the significant increase in eu nationals needing housing , rents will rise (supply and demand) house prices will rise, wages might decrease in real terms as foreign workers willing to accept lower wages for same work , in work and out of work benefits payments will rise, schools demand will increase  crime will increase, prison population will increase , health service demand will increase.
Yes there will be some increase in tax receipts for let's say an increase of 100,000 but most low income workers are below the tax threshold and have in work benefits as a top up so that could result in a negative in tax receipts in real terms
If you think I'm right wing you're wrong , I'm neither left or right , I also don't believe what I read in the press of either persuasion, I don't particularly like Farage but refreshingly he speaks his mind most other politicians are too afraid of losing a vote and are like sheep , I have friends that are from Europe and relatives and friends that live in Europe, I was employed a while ago and our wages were frozen because the company went to Poland and employed over a hundered workers that would work over eighty hours a week for less money than we got for forty , would you like to work those hours for less money but the poles did it because their families were not with them and they lived ten to a house to keep costs low and sent all spare money home, but according to some things like that don't happen,eu migrants don't work for less , whilst that wasn't the poles fault entirely as the company were complicit if we could regulate against it exploitation wouldn't be done
I might be talking bollocks but careful what you wish for Scotland it might come true and then you're fucked

[mtread]

Just on a few technical points :
1. Scotland would welcome increased migration. It has a skills shortage and plenty of empty space.
2. The Barnet formula doesn't 'give' Scotland money. It shares out UK revenue, which of course the Scots pay into. 
3. Farage is a cunt.

[fazersharp]

It ls almost like the only reason (some ) scots are arguing for a stay in the EU is because they see it as a path to independence.

But in my book I am happy for scotland to leave the UK but there is no way that we can have a situation where scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.     

[VNA]

 

Scotland is not a member of the EU.

That’s strange, cos our legal system and everything we do is fully compliant with the European Union.  I can travel and work across Europe and I can buy goods from Europe without paying any extra duty.  But according to Lew Scotland is not part of the EU.  Somebody needs to point this out to both the Scottish government and the European Union. :lol

Just on a few technical points :
1. Scotland would welcome increased migration. It has a skills shortage and plenty of empty space.
2. The Barnet formula doesn't 'give' Scotland money. It shares out UK revenue, which of course the Scots pay into. 
3. Farage is a cunt.

Spot on Mtread.  I was however stunned to hear Mr Farage talk sense a couple of weeks ago on question time, they were discussing Saudi Arabia, which just so happens to be the birth place of Wahhabism, which Saudi have promoted around the globe and of course Wahhabism has given birth to the so called Islamic State.  Yet, as Farage pointed out, the biggest terrorist sponsors in the world, the friends of IS are our buddies whom we happily sell arms to.  Quite bizarre to hear Will Self call Nigel Farage and Donald Trump “grubby little opportunists” then next hear them both agree about the UK equally grubby relationship with Saudi Arabia. :eek  But there you go.


But yeah, Scotland is concerned about the loss of free movement, it’s working well for us. 



but most low income workers are below the tax threshold and have in work benefits


I’m not sure you understand what Independence means.  It means Scotland will elect it’s own governments and those governments will serve Scotland.  Scotland didn’t elect Maggie Thatcher, we didn’t want New Labour, we didn’t want David Cameron or Teresa Remainer one minute hard line Brexiter the next May. 



I don’t see Scotland running wage and tax structures that subsidise the rich.  Which is what the bulk of in work benefits are – tax breaks for the rich.  Between the biggest corporations in the country not having to pay any tax at all and their workers not getting paid a living wage, well the UK has become the country where socialism for the rich functions.


Look people in England voted to leave the EU by a narrow margin.  Scotland voted to Remain.  But what people haven’t voted on is what Brexit is.


There is also the possibility, which would be fine, that the Tory party will fall apart when Brexit is defined.  If one thing always splits the Tory party, it’s Europe.  One reason Teresa May won’t define Brexit is because the minute she does it’s likely her party will split and tear itself apart.


As for securing the future of the UK.  It’s not that difficult.  If there is a BREXIT (and I say if, as it’s still not clear that any of this will amount to anything) it must be a ‘soft’ BREXIT ie we remain in the single market, further powers that come back from Brussels must come back to the Scottish Parliament , ie fishing, employment law, immigration.  And as compensation, and to secure a future for the UK, corporation tax needs to come under the Scottish Parliament.  Basically federalism.


And clearly if Scotland doesn’t get a good deal one way or another, the option to go alone is still there.

but there is no way that we can have a situation where Scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.   

There will be an open border between Northern Ireland (another country being forced out of the EU against it’s will by England) and The Republic of Ireland.

[fazersharp]

 

but there is no way that we can have a situation where Scotland is part of the EU allowing un fetted immigration only for them to then just walk across the scot - English border.   

There will be an open border between Northern Ireland (another country being forced out of the EU against it’s will by England) and The Republic of Ireland.

But we have a nice big moat between us and them.
What we need is a massive wall between England and scotland - Im sure its been done before and we should also make scotland pay for it.

[VNA]

But we have a nice big moat between us and them.

Which is 'them'.  The people in Northern Ireland (the UK), people in the Republic or folks from accross the EU in both NI and the republic?  Or is it just everybody the English don't like!

And have you never heard of a ferry?

What we need is a massive wall between England and scotland - Im sure its been done before and we should also make scotland pay for it.

FazerDonaldsharp?  Anyway anybody laugthing at Trump should check out the UK government.  "I want a red white and blue Brexit"  Theresa May

[mtread]

I think you will find there is only a land boundary between Eire and UK(NI). Or are you looking to stop free movement within the UK?