Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
I'm still slightly undecided because if we vote out the strong EU countries like Germany, France , Holland etc.. Will deal amongst themselves rather than deal with us, as a get it up you for leaving. This is because as had been said before we give a lot to the EU. Because we foolishly joined the eu in the first place, it has backfired on us because we are now in a situation where we know if we leave they will tax us like they do the Norwegians for exporting there fish. Poland can now sell there fish to the EU cheaper than the Norwegians :\ The other reason is Scotland wants to remain in the EU, Which may start an Independence referendum.
If it's broken, it's not fixed.
Quote:Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
I agree with every single word :thumbup
24-02-16, 11:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 25-02-16, 10:34 PM by fazersharp.)
I dont agree with any of it
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggest joint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
being a member gives us full access, and full influence.
Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it
Ok not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.
No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(24-02-16, 09:41 PM)VNA link Wrote: Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
The same sorts of statements about loss of business were stated about us not being in the Eurozone, and they turned out to be wildly incorrect. Us, Sweden, Denmark and the Czech Republic all opted to retain our own currencies and our economies weathered the recession much better than those in the eurozone. Growth in Cz has dwarfed that in neighbouring Slovakia largely because Slovakia has been hamstrung by the stagnation on the Euro. It's amusing that the same arguments used to try to drop the pound are now being used to retain membership. The arguments need to be much more robust.
(24-02-16, 10:42 PM)nickodemon link Wrote: I'm still slightly undecided because if we vote out the strong EU countries like Germany, France , Holland etc.. Will deal amongst themselves rather than deal with us, as a get it up you for leaving. This is because as had been said before we give a lot to the EU. Because we foolishly joined the eu in the first place, it has backfired on us because we are now in a situation where we know if we leave they will tax us like they do the Norwegians for exporting there fish. Poland can now sell there fish to the EU cheaper than the Norwegians :\ The other reason is Scotland wants to remain in the EU, Which may start an Independence referendum.
It's worth remembering that we buy more german cars than any other market in the world. The idea that levies will be imposed on EU exports to the UK are misguided, it would turn into an overnight arms-race/battle of wills. If we left (it's all on a knife edge) the divorce would include a free trade agreement between the EU and the UK, there are unlikely to be a sudden introduction of tariffs (BMW and Volkswagen would be bending Merkels ear in a flash, who would in turn bend the Commision's collective ear).
(24-02-16, 11:00 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: I dont agree with any of it
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggest joint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
being a member gives us full access, and full influence.
Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it
Ok not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.
No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff
The European Convention on Human Rights/Strasbourg is held up as some pious thing of brilliance, yet at least one judge in ECJ was banned in his own country (I think it was Romania) for corruption. Why is this court put on a pedestal, when it's judges may not be fit for purpose and it's judges seem to disregard morality in the race to be seen to uphold to individual rights against the greater good? The first Bill of Rights in the modern world was written by the English. Didn't the Continental Congress paraphrase much of it when the US was founded?
Doesn't NAFTA use CE markings as they consider it such a useful standard?
Remember before EU/EEC that the British Standard and the Kitemark were used around the world, both in Commonwealth countries and by adoption elsewhere. We don't have to be a member of the EC to use it's standards.
(24-02-16, 12:59 PM)Hedgetrimmer link Wrote: Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars? Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter?
This is an EXCELLENT point. There is clearly is a large gap between what EU is doing and what UK is doing.
Having said that if UK - EU relationship turns sour (not saying that OUT means that), here in Ireland things might get tricky as UK is by far the largest trading partner..! Interesting times that we live in!
25-02-16, 12:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 25-02-16, 12:22 AM by mtread.)
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
Yes they could. Scotland has a much bigger population (5.3m) than Slovenia (2.1m)
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggestjoint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
The major traders (USA, China etc) want to trade with a EU all on the same terms, not with individual countries on different terms.
They have said so.being a member gives us full access, and full influence.Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
No other individual country has got such specific terms
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping itOk not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
No we didn't. It [Human Rights Act 1998] is composed of a series of sections that have the effect of codifying the protections in the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff.
HSBC is British by name then ? :-) Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave. They are in the UK so they can export to the EC without tariff. If we leave that will end and they will move
25-02-16, 12:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 25-02-16, 12:43 AM by fazersharp.)
If Hsbc honda toyota to trade freely within the EU - why didn't they set up there in the first place
No other individual country has got such specific terms
No other country has asked or wants them
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
Plenty enough to force camerons hand
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
Hsbc honda toyota to trade freely within the EU - why didn't they set up there in the first place Some do, and some choose the UK. But they won't if we leave.
No other individual country has got such specific terms
No other country has asked or wants themNot sure that's true. Denmark is looking pretty envious. Anyway, if we have them and nobody else does, all the more reason to stay.
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
Plenty enough to force camerons hand
As has been said, it's Tory back benchers which have forced his hand. UKIP have one (ex-Tory) MP, and can't even get their leader elected to Parliament.
25-02-16, 07:56 AM
(This post was last modified: 25-02-16, 10:22 PM by Slaninar.)
(24-02-16, 12:59 PM)Hedgetrimmer link Wrote:
Out for me, at least until the Franco-German 'bloc' can learn to be a bit less bossy. Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars?
I can speak for my country - Serbia. Government is run by the EU, doing what they're told. Media is controlled, people brainwashed (and often bribed to vote for them).
The good thing would be a possibility to work in the EU a lot easier.
(24-02-16, 12:59 PM)Hedgetrimmer link Wrote: Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter? And all the scaremongers who say, "oh, we don't know what 'out' will look like" :rolleyes Like we'd be the only country in the world that values it's independence and survives perfectly well. Do people really think all contact, trade, diplomatic relations, common security concerns etc will completely cease between us and the Euro bloc if we leave? And yet all the other Euro countries are so desperate to keep us inside the EU? The US wants us to stay in, you say? What about losing our special relationship with them? Seems to me that's a one way deal anyway, they get what they want from us, we get feck-all from them - just dictated to.
No, I think it's time we learned to stand on our own feet again. We may not be so much 'Great' Britain anymore, but we have to learn to get along in the world on our own merits. Perhaps we'll be less blasé about our education system and industry etc if we actually need home grown talent to survive in the world.
Countries will soon cease to exist - just companies.
My history teacher used to define a "state" as: "an instrument that protects the interests of the rich/ruling, while keeping the rest of the population in obedience". EU is the same thing on a greater level.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
(25-02-16, 07:56 AM)Slaninar link Wrote: [quote author=Hedgetrimmer link=topic=19420.msg225030#msg225030 date=1456315194]
Out for me, at least until the Franco-German 'bloc' can learn to be a bit less bossy. Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars?
I can speak for my country - Serbia. Government is run by the EU, doing what they're told. Media is controlled, people brainwashed (and often bribed to vote for them).
The good thing would be a possibility to work in the EU a lot easier.
(24-02-16, 12:59 PM)Hedgetrimmer link Wrote: Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter? And all the scaremongers who say, "oh, we don't know what 'out' will look like" :rolleyes Like we'd be the only country in the world that values it's independence and survives perfectly well. Do people really think all contact, trade, diplomatic relations, common security concerns etc will completely cease between us and the Euro bloc if we leave? And yet all the other Euro countries are so desperate to keep us inside the EU? The US wants us to stay in, you say? What about losing our special relationship with them? Seems to me that's a one way deal anyway, they get what they want from us, we get feck-all from them - just dictated to.
No, I think it's time we learned to stand on our own feet again. We may not be so much 'Great' Britain anymore, but we have to learn to get along in the world on our own merits. Perhaps we'll be less blasé about our education system and industry etc if we actually need home grown talent to survive in the world.
Countries will soon cease to exist - just companies.
My history teacher used to define a "state" as: "an instrument that protects the interests of the rich/ruling, while keeping the rest of the population in obedience". EU is the same thing on a greater level.
[/quote]
Quite agree - I laugh when people moan about 'Tories', in terms of shear self-protection and corporatism the EU makes the Tories look like War on Want. Labour are always banging on about Working Class people making it to Government, the Lords etc. I'd love to see the figures for WC folk from the UK (and across the EU) getting jobs within the upper escelons of the EU. The figure won't be high, it's not what you know in Brussels it's absolutely who you know and who wants you in the club.
Ask the average Joe in the street if he wants more politicians, and if your lucky he'll laugh at you, more likely he'll tell you are all parasites. Yet we've loaded an entire continent with career bureaucrats.
Compare the EU to the USA.
The USA is essentially a bunch of countries (known as states) that share a common currency, common federal laws (with state specific ones), a free trade agreement and different tax rules.
How is this different to the EU? The difference is that within the EU, at the moment, we have more clout within each country to do what we want than each US state has. If we let the EU continue on the path Merkel and Co want to take it, it will end up exactly like the USA and pretty much like Hitler wanted in 1939.
Another ex-Fazer rider that is a foccer again
25-02-16, 12:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 25-02-16, 01:13 PM by fazersharp.)
(25-02-16, 12:18 AM)mtread link Wrote: Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave. Aston Martin you say
BBC News -- exactly the same time you were typing that
Aston Martin is to build its new luxury car in south Wales, creating 750 highly-skilled jobs.
The DBX car will be hand-made in a super hangar at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan.
It is a major coup for Wales to secure the deal ahead of 20 locations across the world.
So again more scaremongering,some companies have said it will put jobs at risk.
And there is the subtle phrase "at risk" - when asked if these companies have plans to reduce staff they say no.
Does anyone think for one minute that there has not been secrete talks already to put in place trade plans ready for the day after an out vote
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
The reason the big companies want us to stay in , is the cheap pool of labour that is readily available . If the establishment want us to stay in , that's a good enough reason for me to want out .
Not scaremongering at all, because you see I actually heard the BBC Radio 4 interview with the CEO of Aston Martin where he gave the reasons why Wales was chosen over 27 other locations, including that it is located in the EU and will receive EU subsidies. . Facts rather than the negative immigration based scaremongering of the other side.
(25-02-16, 05:40 PM)mtread link Wrote: why Wales was chosen over 27 other locations, including that it is located in the EU and will receive EU subsidies. That's another another one that keeps being banded about "subsidies", businesses - farmers, its not EU subsidies money its OUR MONEY that we pay to the EU --55 million :eek a day ! just being sent back to us after its filtered through Brussels for all the Eurocrats to put their hands in it to pay their massive pay packets.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
It's all very well talking about trade and economic clout in the EU. If that were all it was about, I'd be for staying. But more and more we surrender our sovereignty, our ability to make our own rules and decisions as a nation state with all that this means. This I don't want.
A superstate which is where the EU is heading , Will benefit the bureaucrats , and the rich and powerful , when Labour signed the Lisbon treaty , we were sold it on their lie that workers would have better protection , instead we have zero hour contracts and less stability , and the wealth gap is growing , Why should British working people surrender the pay and conditions they have have fought for , . I don't have a problem with immigration as long as it is controlled , we are a small island with limited resources .
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