(04-12-15, 08:59 PM)Slaninar link Wrote: That's not what I meant. I meant that people starting wars are never really religious - no religion promotes war, hatred, violence. None.
There's a story about man driving a car with his family, being stopped by some militant muslims, pointing guns at them, asking him to say a quote from Kuran in order to proove he's a Muslim. He quotes the bible. They let him go. When his wife asked how was that possible, was he crazy, he replies: "they aren't real Muslims, if they knew Kuran, they wouldn't be doing this".
Just another fairytale methinks!
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
I love Jesus -- top bloke that, his first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding, I bet he was invited to a lot of weddings after that ! and the reason all the other weddings are not in the Bible is because everyone got so pissed they don't remember
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(04-12-15, 11:40 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: I love Jesus -- top bloke that, his first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding, I bet he was invited to a lot of weddings after that ! and the reason all the other weddings are not in the Bible is because everyone got so pissed they don't remember :lol :lol
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.
What i generally use to stop people in their tracks was the rather questionable "fact" that Noah died aged 950 years old.
"Fuck off" is usually my next response to whatever answer is given. :rolleyes
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
05-12-15, 12:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-12-15, 12:54 PM by VNA.)
Should the UK join in the bombing? Absolutely not.
Not at this time. The bombing campaign has not worked - it is not working.
The coalition has conducted 59,015 sorties (as of 3-12-15), of which only 8,573 have resulted in air strikes - so the great majority of planes return to base not having used their weapons. And what have the 8,573 strikes achieved - well did they keep Paris safe? And now another attack in the USA.
DC's 70,000 moderates? Well of the variety of groups from the YPG, The Free Syrian Army, Tajamu Fastaqm Kama Umrat, Thuwar al-Sham, Jabhat al-Asala wal Tanmiya and so on and so on. The YPG (Kurdish) are secular and moderate but they certainly don't trust us or even like us and often find themselves under attack from Turkish forces. The rest are generally fundamentalist Islamist fighters many affiliated to Al-Qaida. So extremists one day, moderates the next. These groups generally hate us (and not without good reason) they expect us to use them, what they are trying to do is get more use out of us them we do of them. None are our friends or allies.
These groups generally act independently of each other. They generally share common enemies in Assad and Isis, but take those away and they will, probably fight each other.
So the 70,000 moderate forces ready to fight together against ISIS is as big a lie as Tony Blair's '45 minutes'.
Meanwhile Turkey still will not close it's border with Syria. The YPG has closed most of it, but they keep getting attacked by Turkey. We back factions that are fighting Assad but they keep getting attacked by Russia.
The most effective fighters against ISIS are the KPP (Kurdish), The Syrian Army, The Iranian Army and perhaps Hezbollah, but we see them all as enemies. We oppose or attack them.
The Turkmen (minority in Northern Iran) with some support from Turkey are attacking Assad's forces but are under attack from Russia, whom Turkey got upset about and shot down a Russian military fighter.
Ideology and funding - The Isis ideology, it's interpretation of Islam is Wahhabbist. Saudia Arabia is the birthplace of Wahhabbism and is a Wahhabbist state. Saudi with it's vast wealth has spread the Wahhabbist faith round the globe like a cancer over the past few decades. Saudi is the source of the whole problem. But nobody wants to speak the truth.
Many millions upon millions of pounds of cash is pouring into ISIS hands via very rich individuals in Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait and other sympathetic countries.
So clearly bombing at this moment is a complete waste of time, and will I guarantee you only make matters worse. The whole situation is a farce. A disaster. A coalition of fighting muppets if you like.
The priority must be for political solutions. ISIS is having things it's own way just now, their plan is working perfectly with everybody fighting them but more importantly each other. Right now they are in a cannot lose position.
Further the coalition of bombing muppets will in the long term lead to further destabilisation of the Middle East and further distress amongst M.E communities around the globe, the young and ignorant may well turn to 'extremist' ideology in greater numbers. Expect more attacks and events on our soil.
Of course ISIS have to be snubbed out. But that cannot be achieved until the major players and forces on the ground have come to a rough agreement. And if that was achieved then there must be further joint work on achieving a peaceful political solution, otherwise this civil war will keep spreading.
Hillary Benn's speech? It was a great performance, passionately delivered, rousing and all the rest of it. Sadly there was no substance or sense - it was in fact a load of bull. Hillary voted in favour of war following Tony Blair's 45 minute claim.
05-12-15, 12:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-12-15, 12:58 PM by Slaninar.)
(04-12-15, 10:57 PM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=Slaninar link=topic=18850.msg217998#msg217998 date=1449259152]
That's not what I meant. I meant that people starting wars are never really religious - no religion promotes war, hatred, violence. None.
There's a story about man driving a car with his family, being stopped by some militant muslims, pointing guns at them, asking him to say a quote from Kuran in order to proove he's a Muslim. He quotes the bible. They let him go. When his wife asked how was that possible, was he crazy, he replies: "they aren't real Muslims, if they knew Kuran, they wouldn't be doing this".
Just another fairytale methinks!
[/quote]
But the point is that no religion teaches hatred and war. That's a fact. The problem is when someone reads "don't kill", then goes to army and says that it's OK to kill for a good cause, in spite of the direct order from God. 
BTW today if you went into a mountain and came back with another 10 commandments, saying you talked to God, they'd put you in a mental hospital. But when someone brings a book written several thousand years ago stating the same claim, some people take it for granted.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
Thanks vna that's what I've been trying to say only you put it better.
a bird in the hand poops on the wrist
I have to say that i agree with VNA too on this occasion......VNA your talents are wasted.......i totally agree that all of these little groups of fighters are all basically as bad as each other and they are in no way our allies..........we will be attacked from within regardless of what we do in Syria but it might just make it a little worse.
A part of me enjoys the thought of blatting as much of this isis scum as possible....in that sense i wouldnt really be too bothered if i heard that we'd just used chemical weapons on them......im not too fussed about the civilian casualties either to be brutally honest.....at the end of the day we bombed whole cities during the 2nd world war.....a life under isis rule isnt really a life in my book and it would put allot o folk out of their misery before isis start raping them and torturing them as if they are on some kind of sick version of crystal maze.
I just think that the countries closer to the troubles should deal with it themselves......let turkey do a bit more...iran is a mahoosive power...let them crack on too.....actually while im at it who let turkey into the EU anyway they are a bunch of backstabbers they arent any better than those little islamist fighter groups we call allies......yeh let crack on with it.
And yes those saudi lot i agree they are some of the worst....i wish there was a solution to the likes of them...and qatar and the likes.......what if we all just stopped being mates....they have enough money to get by for a whike no doubt.
But if we do just part ways from the middle east then how will we do for oil.........USA are ok they are almost self sufficient with shale gas now they actually dont need middle east oil.....at the moment anyway......but europe would be fucked......where does that leave us....begging Russia perhaps.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike
Been watching cnn re the latest shooting and ISIS had nowt to do with it. The whole thing started when the wifey complained about her soup being cold......
Complete fabrication, I didn't make it up!
So we are bombing the oil fields, killing workers who have no say in where the oil money goes, why not bomb the people who are buying the oil, or have they bigger bombs than us?
I think turkey are buying isis oil yet another twist. Noggy once we start fracking we'll have shed loads of oil of our own. :lol
a bird in the hand poops on the wrist
(05-12-15, 09:20 PM)bri h link Wrote: I think turkey are buying isis oil yet another twist. Noggy once we start fracking we'll have shed loads of oil of our own. :lol
Oh yes we cant move for natural resources bri :lol .................if only we could run our cars on Pot Noodle :b ...... [size=78%]but we do have the dregs of north sea...big.....or small we still have it.........the Scandahoolies will always be our allies we have much in common with them.......regardless if you've never been outta your home county the average brit would at least get their culture.....we are simillar shall i say........Turkey are a bunch of dodgy.......errrrr....turks lol......i wouldnt go there.....every tale i hear of folk going there is something i dislike....not culturally simillar.........same with half of these other middle eastern countries....why should i feel ashamed of not agreeing with their ways....i have no wish to go there, either for fun or to kill....im happy here in the windy black wilderness.[/size]
Anyway i digress.............we need the USA.....they are culturally simillar.....they have shit loads of supplies and if we let go the middle east we will soon be requiring shit loads of supplies......some more than others ahem!!! :\ ........i have cut down my bacon intake..........i look forward to more LNG imports from the US and give the middle east the middle finger.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike
Quote:im not too fussed about the civilian casualties either to be brutally honest
But isn't this exactly why this is being debated and the UK is now acting - though without too much thought - yes civilian casualties.
Don't forget that the catalyst to this was George Bush and Tony Blair with their fantasy religious neo con dreams.
And the Paris victims, if you like, are collateral damage.
And as far as I am concerned, it's here we go again - hold onto your hats, as, as long as we stay in denial and keep making the wrong decisions the worse it's gonna get.
Oh, and noggy, while you might not be too bothered about civilian casualties ISIS positively love it, here or on their own soil.
And David Cameron, he's a fucking idiot, 70,000 'moderate' troops on the ground ready to fight ISIS? Then his comment about "terrorist sympathisers" - what a fucking tool that man is.
So presumably DC should be a very worried man, as according to opinion polls and his own, umm, logic, that must mean there are about 30,000,000 terrorist sympathisers in the UK alone :eek :eek :eek
Isis can love all the pain and suffering they like for all im concerned....it will be nothing compared to the suffering that a civilised society or power ie super power can inflict on them.......we can beat about the bush here but at the end of the day i know what id be "content" to do to this lot.....lets dish it out with giant ladels.....if it is ideology handed a gun then my ideology says make mine a GPMG.
Paris victims were tragic....and sad.........amongst many other deaths........i hope france sorts its own act out as a result and yet again im greatful for not being french as they have less backbone than the uk.
What is the righ decision though...we are all good at the negatives......what is difficult is the positives....thats why we are not employed to make such decisions.
And the politics of the prime minister are not my concern...i didnt vote for him....i have no like for him or his party....but i trust that the majority of my fine kingdom did & i stand by their decision......i just hope that they se sense next time round.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike
I worked alongside a Pakistani on the day of the London bombings, when it was broadcast on the radio I made a comment about how the UK police and anti terror squad will probably over react, arresting innocent people, knocking down doors in the middle of the night, scaring families and causing more resentment. I wasn't wrong, I was living in Leicester at the time, many people were taken in such a manner, none of which proved to have links to any terrorist organisations.
Once I'd got off my soap box my friend said quietly 'In my town in Pakistan, this happens virtually daily, such a common occurrence it hardly makes the news papers any more, other than the obituaries'
Many Pakistani worked at this company and at the end of the conversation he leaned in and whispered ' be careful Mel. there are terrorists everywhere'
I sometimes wonder what Butt new
Complete fabrication, I didn't make it up!
(06-12-15, 09:41 AM)joebloggs link Wrote: I worked alongside a Pakistani on the day of the London bombings, when it was broadcast on the radio I made a comment about how the UK police and anti terror squad will probably over react, arresting innocent people, knocking down doors in the middle of the night, scaring families and causing more resentment. I wasn't wrong, I was living in Leicester at the time, many people were taken in such a manner, none of which proved to have links to any terrorist organisations.
Once I'd got off my soap box my friend said quietly 'In my town in Pakistan, this happens virtually daily, such a common occurrence it hardly makes the news papers any more, other than the obituaries'
Many Pakistani worked at this company and at the end of the conversation he leaned in and whispered ' be careful Mel. there are terrorists everywhere'
I sometimes wonder what Butt new
You were doing so well until that last sentence, which makes no sense?
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(05-12-15, 08:13 PM)noggythenog link Wrote: im not too fussed about the civilian casualties either to be brutally honest.....at the end of the day we bombed whole cities during the 2nd world war.....a life under isis rule isnt really a life in my book and it would put allot o folk out of their misery before isis start raping them and torturing them as if they are on some kind of sick version of crystal maze.
I believe life in England with lots of rain is not much of a life. Here, let me put you out of your misery. And your children too.
How about that?
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
(06-12-15, 10:01 AM)Slaninar link Wrote: [quote author=noggythenog link=topic=18850.msg218084#msg218084 date=1449342782]
im not too fussed about the civilian casualties either to be brutally honest.....at the end of the day we bombed whole cities during the 2nd world war.....a life under isis rule isnt really a life in my book and it would put allot o folk out of their misery before isis start raping them and torturing them as if they are on some kind of sick version of crystal maze.
I believe life in England with lots of rain is not much of a life. Here, let me put you out of your misery. And your children too.
How about that?
[/quote]
Think that comment is more appropriate for Scotland and Northern Ireland, where the weather is positively shit at all times.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(06-12-15, 10:13 AM)darrsi link Wrote: Think that comment is more appropriate for Scotland and Northern Ireland, where the weather is positively shit at all times.
NOW you tell me?!
Hmm... should I call of the nuke attack, or mark England as "collateral damage" and get on with it...
It's not even funny, more sad, but noggys post about civilian casualties pissed me off, really.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
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