Braking

[flakey]

:rollin

[esetest]

I used to use 70/30 , but at the race school they taught you apply the rear to load the front then the front and they encourage you to use the throttle only for manoeuvring , although personally I use the rear for low speed manoeuvring and front normal braking 

[Val]

It depends on the bike. Honda and some BMWs has linked brakes so you do not have too much option there when you use front it presses to some extent the rear brake too. Some old two stroke drum brakes the front was pathetic and dangerous.

On the Fazer I use rear for filtering a lot, in the wet or muddy, mid corner sometimes. Probably will use it on snow. Bear in mind I like soft organic pads rear, which makes it very gradual and when I say use I mean very soft gentle nudge too. Even in filtering my "aggresive" rear use is probably never more than 40% of its full capacity before it locks. When you are in the middle of the road on the chevrons where there is plenty of white paint, road debries and whatnot you have to be very gentle on the brakes 

Normal slow down I use front to shave off most of the speed, than final stop on lights I finish with rear touch that is just to put my left foot down and leave my right foot on the rear brake and pull the clutch. I am in 1st so when its green I just get up my left foot, get off the clutch and get on my way.

When I need to slow down fast I use front only. The Fazer has so good brakes that I always use two fingers only for the front. Even in emergency so far. In such case can't use rear anyway because when fast my feet balls are on the pegs away from the rear brake.

[His Dudeness]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

[darrsi]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

:agree


Yeah, i'd imagine we all do things on the bike as second nature without even thinking about it compared to a learner for instance.
For example when i get on the bike the front brake gets applied straight away to take control of it when removing the side stand, etc, but that would not be something a beginner would instantly do because they simply wouldn't know to do that.


I've never been a heavy braker anyway, probably due to years of taking a pillion and getting bored of being nutted.  :wall

[redfox1]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

-Ditto

[Dave48]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek

[Frosties]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek

In simple terms - imagine a speed boat going at 40mph then throw an anchor out the back....that nose will come down  :lol

[sadlonelygit]

try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie. i use the back to get the bike upright quicker in S's on track or scrub off mid corner speed ........there'll be a video later on today fwiw!
not using both sets of brakes is like removing a carb from the engine :rolleyes

[nick crisp]

try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie.  :rolleyes

Exactly what I was thinking. To get the front end down when doing a wheelie, you use the rear brake. I'm no physicist, but I guess the bike's forward momentum translates into a turning force at the rear when the rear brake is applied. I would imagine hard braking on the front has a much stronger effect in this regard, but then you have the weight of the whole bike, plus the forward momentum loading it. So it's about degree of control, comparing the two?

[celticdog]

Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.

[unfazed]

Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.

the fact your still alive amazes me  :lol :lol :lol

[joebloggs]

I had a Katana that didn't have a rear brake at all, well it had a caliper with the piston etc removed, never once did I feel the need to use the rear brake, although a friend had one hell of a shock when we went around Cadwell park and swapped bikes halfway though a session lol

[celticdog]

the fact your still alive amazes me  :lol :lol :lol



Me too!  :eek  Seriously though, I'm strictly an old school rider, 80% front 20% rear and 50/50 in very wet conditions.

[unfazed]

I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often :lol

[Grahamm]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

[Val]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek

In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.

What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question 

Too much use of rear brake not good because:

1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?

The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise 

IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you  :lol

And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it  :rollin :rollin

[darrsi]

[quote author=Dave48 link=topic=18540.msg213761#msg213761 date=1445419415]
I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end! :eek

In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.

What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question 

Too much use of rear brake not good because:

1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?

The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise 

IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you  :lol

And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it  :rollin :rollin
[/quote]


"...In simple terms your bike moves forward..."


Yeah, i think you've nailed it there Val.  :lol

[mr self destruct]

This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.


Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.

[darrsi]

This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.


Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.

As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.


You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.


Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway.  mokin


Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance?  :lol


http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/