(21-09-14, 01:28 PM)midden link Wrote: Should loosen both ends of the torsion bar for adjustment :rolleyes
You are correct Midden, it should have read "not loosening the caliper side and swinging arm side torque arm bolts when adjusting the chain"
Unfortunately 90% of people including mechanics do not :eek
I have changed the post to reflect your correct observation, it is obvious from the comment that you too loosen the bolts as do I and a few others on the forum.
What bother me most is the number of mechanics who do not loosen these bolts or understand why you should :eek
Im still scratching my chin on this whole tourque arm thing.
How come then if you should loosen it (both ends ) before you pull back the wheel-------- how come you CAN still pull back the wheel without loosening said arm.
And what exactly is the tourque arm providing tourque against or what tourque is it countering, I always thought it was to stop the caliper spinning around the disk when you brake --- but isnt it bolted in place?
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(24-09-14, 10:16 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: Im still scratching my chin on this whole tourque arm thing.
How come then if you should loosen it (both ends ) before you pull back the wheel-------- how come you CAN still pull back the wheel without loosening said arm.
And what exactly is the tourque arm providing tourque against or what tourque is it countering, I always thought it was to stop the caliper spinning around the disk when you brake --- but isnt it bolted in place?
edited out my response: changed my mind ! :eek kebab , you have answered your own question and also seen the results of not having a torque arm or having one that isnt to spec, non OEM, or has been stressed out of normal parameters
try to visualise in math terms...
imagine a triangle made of tough steel rods connected by bolts at each corner. One side is your vertical on the swingarm, one side is from the vertical to the caliper along the swingarm horizontal, and the final side is the torque arm. Now imagine pushing and pulling on the calliper , what do you think is going to happen to the shape of the triangle. Push hard, force, its going to "bend" the triangle and eventually one side is going to bust (or a corner).
Now, undo some of the bolts and the triangle now starts to change its shape, its still a triangle but the angles are changing -and thus the shape - as you move the corners around pushing and pulling. It moves freely now but there is no rigidity - things can move around the pivots (corners) and so can the calliper !!!.
Tighten up the bolts again and you have a rigid triangle shape. Try to bend it now or apply forces too great, and it will break but under normal parameters the shape remains rigid and the pivots stay where they are (the calliper doesnt move!)
So if one of the sides is weak (a non OEM torque arm or an arm not to spec) then the forces applied when braking are going to try to move that triangle shape and the weak point (the arm) is going to give or a pivot (the mount) is going to shear
When you adjust your chain you are changing the wheelbase and the shape of the triangle; loosening the bolts allows the calliper to rotate slightly around the pivot and bring the triangle into a slightly different shape and moves the torque arm slightly (the swingarm "sides" of the triangle cannot move). Without allowing the calliper to rotate, you are trying to apply those forces to the triangle without allowing the shape to change in reciprocation and thus "blow" the triangle out of shape or make it come loose at the weakest point - a pivot point (the swingarm mount in your case).
Its all very minor adjustments but the sum of the parts is greater.
24-09-14, 11:11 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-14, 11:13 PM by unfazed.)
(21-09-14, 12:44 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: [quote author=unfazed link=topic=14772.msg167459#msg167459 date=1411299008]
[quote author=His Dudeness link=topic=14772.msg167448#msg167448 date=1411296336]
The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.
(21-09-14, 11:58 AM)tweetytek link Wrote: And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!
Eureka :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Nothing to do with suspension
[/quote]
Hmmm -- I pulled my wheel back a few months ago by about 2mm (yes) do you think I should now go and loosen off the caliper-side arm bolt, and then re tighten to realease said stress
[/quote]
(24-09-14, 10:52 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: Errr forgive me but I will read that again another day --------- when Mr Tyskie is not with me
All tweetytek is saying is that the angle between
A. The torque arm and the swinging arm
and
B. The torque arm and caliper bracket changes as the caliper bracket rotates when you move the axle.
If the bolts are tight it cannot move freely and stresses the bolting (pivot) points.
Eventually something has to give and in Kebab19 case it was the swinging arm pivot point :thumbup :lol
Thanks guys for this informative chin wag. I recently did a complete overhaul of the rear end of my fazer 600. This included new chain and sprockets, and a nice new sexy R6 shock conversion kit bought from kebab19. Had a bit of a problem fitting the shock because my suspension linkage bearings were non existent due to failure on my part to grease them. Bought a second hand linkage and was able to fit the afore mentioned sexy shocker. By the way thanks again kebab19 :thumbup for the shock and the offer to search your garage for an old linkage for me. I then put on the new chain and sprockets but had a real hard time trying to get the wheel to line up using the alignment marks on the swingarm. I got it quite close but it was a bugger to do and did line up completely true. I scratched my head and gave up resigned to the fact that the almost correct alignment was as close as I could get. I know realize that when I replaced the chain and sprockets and tried to align the wheel I didn't loosen the torque arm bolts :oops . So first thing tomorrow morning I shall be out with the tools and will be realigning the wheel but this time with the torque arm bolts loose. Hopefully this will allow me to correctly and accurately align the back wheel. Sorry to hear about the accident you nearly had kebab19 but something really fooking useful has came out of it and I for one am greatfull for the information regarding the need to loosen the torque arm bolts prior to rear wheel alignment. So thanks guys, a day when something new and useful is learnt is a good day indeed. Cheers to all who contributed. un
I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
Women have chocolate men have bikes.....
including ones who like chocolate....
(26-09-14, 12:54 AM)midden link Wrote: I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
26-09-14, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-14, 08:38 PM by unfazed.)
(26-09-14, 10:40 AM)tweetytek link Wrote: [quote author=midden link=topic=14772.msg168065#msg168065 date=1411689241]
I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
[/quote]
Because everybody knows the rule "if in doubt swing out of it" :lol :lol :lol
How many do you know who do their own maintenance actually own a Torque Wrench? :eek :eek :eek
No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(26-09-14, 03:28 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
Yes but you are quoting a yamaha SHOP manual . it assumes a working level competence within the shop bay at the DEALER garage. All staff undergo general yamaha centric DEALER/franchise training and this sort of document is merely a guide for THE SPECIFIC BIKE MODEL. I mean this shop manual doesnt say a lot of things in a lot of areas; you are better off with a Haynes if you are new to Yamahas or indeed perhaps new to bike DIY in general. Otherwise this shop manual is okay but not a prescriptive line by line 101% step by step noddy guide so watch out :rolleyes
Of course my friend, the litmus test is to repeat your test again once the bike is all good to go and come back and tell us what happened after a few 000s miles !!! It is entirely your decision as to whether you take the advice on offer above from foccers - or not :z
26-09-14, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-14, 04:21 PM by fazersharp.)
I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.
EDIT----- just to make it clear that the advice given by focers is excellent and always given through experience.Just pointing out that no manual says to loosen it
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(26-09-14, 04:16 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.
LoL - don't loosen it then :lol
just have a look at that haynes for us a minute and tell us which way to turn the key in the seat lock - I'm not sure ?! cheers
It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.
Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike
(26-09-14, 04:55 PM)noggythenog link Wrote: It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.
Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it
the practice is quite common mate, jI've been doing it for years, but here is just a few links taken during 10 seconds of surfing ...
I could probably find 000s more but hey, the haynes manual doesnt mention it :'( so maybe I'm gunna stop bothering and just do something more interesting as I am no expert on fizzies and only ever owned 1 (currently) for only a few months. but this sort of "generic" failsafe working practice is one of those things that takes seconds and saves a loada aggro - no brainer really
un
