A question of respect (let the flaming begin...)

[simonm]

Not that I'm argumentative, contentious, difficult or like to have a good "debate" but here is one for you.

How fine is the line between respect for the police and not ?

Background:
- I once looked at being a copper but the paperwork, hell the application form, looked like just too much effort (I'm a lazy sod too).  I also wondered if it was a thankless job.
- I was pulled over and given 3 points for overtaking a car and caravan that was doing 20mph on a clear road because the final part of the maneuver ended on double white lines (darn it).
- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout.  My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway.  Copper pulled me over tried to tell me off, I gave him a mouthful, and we backed off.


Context:
Since I was pulled over I became critical of the police, I've seen no reason to change my view.  I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights and performing what I would call dangerous manoeuvres in 30 mph zones.

I know the police do a good job, I know it's a thankless task, but why are they so intent on making it 'us' and 'them' ?  I want to like and respect the police but I just don't.

I'm going on a bikesafe course which is run by bike coppers but I am sure (pretty positive) that I will see these guys in a completely different light to the car based police and the guys and girls that turn up after the horse has bolted.


Conclusion:
How can I change my viewpoint ?

I'm sure this could degenerate in to a flame war but I just don't quite understand what changed the beat bobby and the police in to the face of repression to me.  I don't see a copper and smile because whenever they look at me I feel as if I'm being judged when I'm not guilty of anything.  It's been a long time since I saw a member of the police force smile and have a laugh.

Lets hope the bikesafe course readjusts my perspective.

[His Dudeness]

Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.

[simonm]

Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.

What right did they have to pull me the second time ?  I wasn't breaking the law in any way shape or form....unlike them.  They were speeding.  Interested to hear your rationale for that.

They are there to enforce the law on others, but break the law themselves ?  Isn't that a bit sanctimonious ?

Thanks for your view though.  Glad to know I'm in the minority.

[richfzs]

.
- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout.  My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway. 

You caused another vehicle to have to change speed and/or direction. That's a test fail, and against the highway code. The fact its a copper, is irrelevant, you're in the wrong.

Unfortunately (for me), I find myself in the same boat with regards to most of the rest of your post. And I haven't been nicked for anything beyond a 3 pointer for going through a "no entry except buses" - I did it, my fault, no real complaints.

I don't know if it's the training, or the job attracting a certain sort, but the majority I've met (excepting the case above, always as witness or victim) have not conducted themselves in a manner that engenders respect. Which is a real shame. I know there's a few coppers on here, looking forward to their views :-)

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[ponkster]

We know where you live and we know what you ride / drive - have a nice day sir!   

[noggythenog]

I think the best thing to do is try not to take it personally, whether you were right or wrong in your mind, they stopped you because the judged something that they seen & they are qualified to make these judgements & they would have done the same even if it wasnt you personally driving.


Im not saying you didnt know what was happening but youd be surprised at how we all fuzz things up a bit in our  recollection of events, i work in a job where everything we say or do on the phone,radio or equipment is recorded for investigative purposes,it is quite surprising going back through the tapes after an incident to discover that things didnt quite pan out how you thought & that the words you blindly swore that you spoke never seem to come out of the tape.


All im saying is,you werent expecting it,you were just driving along as usual,they were at work & concentrating on you from an outside perspective.


Another thing to think is that at least they acted on what they felt was wrong, even if it wasnt,if they were too scared of scrutiny to ever stop people then getting that one call wrong would soon turn into not stopping much more serious things happening,things that may save people we know & love.

[JoeRock]

[quote author=His Dudeness link=topic=7046.msg66863#msg66863 date=1364919206]
Now admittedly I only glanced through your post :lol but it seemed like they had every right to pull you on those two occasions so what's the problem? Do you want them to go around high fiving people all day? They're there to enforce rules not give out hugs.

What right did they have to pull me the second time ?  I wasn't breaking the law in any way shape or form....unlike them.  They were speeding.  Interested to hear your rationale for that.

They are there to enforce the law on others, but break the law themselves ?  Isn't that a bit sanctimonious ?

Thanks for your view though.  Glad to know I'm in the minority.
[/quote]

Not sure if you know this Simon but cops on motorways have to sit at one of two speeds, either about 55/60 in the inside lane, or sit at 85 in the outside lane - it's basically so that they can get along without causing a massive tailback!

For what it's worth I do tend to respect the plod as I've never had any problems with them - I openly admit to speeding, but it's (I would say never, but I'll go with incredibly rarely) in 30/40 zones, it tends to be for me either country roads, or cruising at higher speeds on the motorway, and I've never been in trouble for it.
I've done a bikesafe course myself in Leicestershire, and thought both it, and the coppers running it were fab, proper bunch of great guys. They weren't fussed about what speed I was at particularly (long as I kept to the 30 and 40 limits, and below 100 on motorways), they just wanted to make my driving safer, which I'm sure they did.
Only issue I have got at the moment is trying to get them to go round and sort out my last bike - it was stolen off me, and a shit load of parts have turned up on eBay from it from a breaker not that far away from when it got stolen - this is proving to be a bloody nightmare, but the last ditch solution I'll be going up with a bunch of mates to the guys house on Saturday and ringing the cops from outside letting them know if they don't get there pronto we'll be going in and taking back what's rightfully mine!

[ChristoT]

Personally, I have a profound distaste for coppers, and I'm a law abiding citizen (no points yet).

The problem can be summed up in Simon's original post:

why are they so intent on making it 'us' and 'them'

Like it or not, the UK has become a police state. We're watched day in, day out by countless cameras, our slightest actions are cracked down upon whilst real crimes appear to be largely ignored / given a wide berth in favour of soft targets like motorists. It's not surprising the general populus is disenchanted with Plod.

I for one have decided that I will not co-operate with the police unless a) it is in my vested interest or b) it concerns a violent/serious crime. For anything else, they can foc off.

PS: I agree completely with the "I feel as if I'm being judged when I'm not guilty of anything". So much for innocent til proven guilty, eh?

[spoonlamp]

Police are people too. You get good, you get bad. Generally you're more likely to come into contact with the bad as the good would give benefit of the doubt. I've been lucky and never had a run in with the pita type and been given benefit of the doubt on more than one occasion...

[BBROWN1664]

I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights

They don't actually have to have the lights and sirens on. They are there for warning people and sometimes they need to be "silent"

The first one sounds like a fair nick. You crossed a white line and they did you for it. You said you were doing 70mph too but didn't mention if it was on a dual carriageway so they may have been after you before the white line incident.

As for Bikesafe. I did the course a few years ago and it was great. The plod on the bikes are bikers and understand how bikes should be ridden. One thing you will learn from them. No matter what they ride, they will out ride you. I thought ST1100 Pan Europeans were lardy tourers before I saw one in the hands of a police rider!

If you want some fun, ask them on their view on "off-siding" whilst out riding. The response I got was to go for it but they wouldn't as they were on marked bikes and the "public" don't understand how much safer off-siding is on left hand bends and just phone in with a complaint about police bikes being ridden dangerously.

[Bracechenko]

Something i've noticed...

English coppers - Power tripping arrogant arseholes who cannot use any level of common sense
Welsh coppers - Generally use a bit of common sense first. If you're in the wrong proper though, you're going to still get a ticket

Never been pulled in Ireland or Scotland - something to add to my life list though 

Regarding your post - sounds like you need to let that one incident go, you're harbouring that ill feeling. Right or wrong, you feel cheated by that copper. Put it down to a bad apple and start afresh. Wipe the slate clean and start forming an opinion on your experiences from BikeSafe onwards.

[simonm]

[quote author=simonm link=topic=7046.msg66859#msg66859 date=1364918365]
.
- I was doing 70mph and gaining on a car and moved out to overtake when a jam sandwich was doing 80+mph without any lights on in the outside lane on the way back to the police station at the next roundabout.  My view was that since there were no blues n twos I was within my rights to overtake and that the police car should not have been driving over the speed limit anyway. 

You caused another vehicle to have to change speed and/or direction. That's a test fail, and against the highway code. The fact its a copper, is irrelevant, you're in the wrong.

Unfortunately (for me), I find myself in the same boat with regards to most of the rest of your post. And I haven't been nicked for anything beyond a 3 pointer for going through a "no entry except buses" - I did it, my fault, no real complaints.

I don't know if it's the training, or the job attracting a certain sort, but the majority I've met (excepting the case above, always as witness or victim) have not conducted themselves in a manner that engenders respect. Which is a real shame. I know there's a few coppers on here, looking forward to their views :-)

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[/quote]


I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out.  If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed.  I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked.  I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.


Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong.  I'm not going to argue about it.

[richfzs]

I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out.  If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed.  I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked.  I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.


Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong.  I'm not going to argue about it.

Well that's a funny attitude, you post things up, you're going to get comments on them. You don't want a debate, don't post them up.

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[simonm]

I frequently see police using excessive speed without any emergency lights

They don't actually have to have the lights and sirens on. They are there for warning people and sometimes they need to be "silent"

The first one sounds like a fair nick. You crossed a white line and they did you for it. You said you were doing 70mph too but didn't mention if it was on a dual carriageway so they may have been after you before the white line incident.

As for Bikesafe. I did the course a few years ago and it was great. The plod on the bikes are bikers and understand how bikes should be ridden. One thing you will learn from them. No matter what they ride, they will out ride you. I thought ST1100 Pan Europeans were lardy tourers before I saw one in the hands of a police rider!

If you want some fun, ask them on their view on "off-siding" whilst out riding. The response I got was to go for it but they wouldn't as they were on marked bikes and the "public" don't understand how much safer off-siding is on left hand bends and just phone in with a complaint about police bikes being ridden dangerously.

I was on dual carriageway.  He couldn't do me for anything, hence why he let me go in spite of me being argumentative.


I think it's wrong for the police to exceed the speed limit without at least the blue lights on.  If they are exceeding the speed limit, they should make other road users aware of the fact otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70.  It's, in my opinion, unsafe for the police to exceed the speed limit without giving a visual cue.


It may be in the law, it may not, but imo it's not right.  Of course my opinion counts for nowt so what does it matter.


I also think they should have to justify use of sirens/lights and excessive speed on each occasion they do it to prevent misuse of power.  Call me a critic huh.

[simonm]

[quote author=simonm link=topic=7046.msg66877#msg66877 date=1364920874]

I'm afraid you're incorrect or at least making assumptions (on some points anyway). There was several hundred meters, maybe more, between myself and the police car when I indicated and pulled out.  If he hadn't been speeding he wouldn't have needed to change speed.  I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking because, obviously, I didn't want to get nicked.  I would have had to brake to allow the police car to overtake me or ended up embedded in the back of the car in front who was doing 60-65mph.


Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong.  I'm not going to argue about it.

Well that's a funny attitude, you post things up, you're going to get comments on them. You don't want a debate, don't post them up.

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[/quote]


Sorry Richfzs.  My rationale was due to the fact you expressed your opinion strongly.  I find when someone has strong convictions they are unlikely to change their viewpoint so there is no point in continuing the debate as you'll not find common ground.  My apologies.

[richfzs]

otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70.

A dangerous assumption that will potentially get you killed!

I know I said I was in a similar boat regarding most of your OP, but I'm rapidly losing sympathy!

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[dazza]

I think the best thing to do is try not to take it personally

  Have to agree with that. Human nature dictates that there is good and bad in all walks of life. I recently got pulled over for doing 40 in a 30 when  I know for a fact I didn't go over 30 as I was aware they were behind me at the lights. So kept an eye on my speedo and them in my rear view mirror as they let the gap increase behind me.  Before the next set of lights I noticed them speed up to close the gap then pull along side me at the lights and accused me of doing 40. When I explained that I wasn't, one of them got verbally aggressive and threatened to take me to court. I've got to admit, this did grieve me for a few days but a little voice inside my head kept saying "Don't take it personally, he's just a cock"

[richfzs]

"Don't take it personally, he's just a cock"

That brings us back to some of the early replies on this thread.... :wink

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[simonm]

[quote author=simonm link=topic=7046.msg66880#msg66880 date=1364921217]
otherwise when I look in my rear view mirror I will assume they're doing 70.

A dangerous assumption that will potentially get you killed!

I know I said I was in a similar boat regarding most of your OP, but I'm rapidly losing sympathy!

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[/quote]
It's okay, I wasn't after sympathy. I respect your opinion and your posts and your input but we don't have to agree on everything.

[richfzs]

It's okay, I wasn't after sympathy. I respect your opinion and your posts and your input but we don't have to agree on everything.

Indeed we don't - world would be a dull place otherwise...

If I really thought you were after sympathy, I'd have told you it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis...

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