Knife/any murders. is it time for capital punishment for those found guilty

[VNA]

My reply #13 - Deterrents will not work.

So NO.

[agricola]

[quote author=mtread link=topic=25011.msg293778#msg293778 date=1551623633][size=1em]
The purpose of reduced sentences is to encourage rehabilitation and remorse. I agree, for the worst murders this is not going to happen. In those cases life must mean life, and it mustn't be pleasant.
[/size]

[size=1em]Now not having ever spent more than one night in a police station, I really don’t have any experiences of incarceration. [/size]
[size=1em]My understanding was that criminals do not go into prison to be punished, but that the removal of their liberty was indeed the punishment, and ideally come out a reformed person.[/size]

[size=1em]But for premeditated murder, and I think anyone going out carrying a knife I think premeditation is infered, a life sentence should be a minimum of 25 - 30 years. For someone who has killed more than once it should be their natural life. [/size]
[/quote]


Have to agree. If you take a knife out with you, you must have had the intention to us it. The problem is, the govt is not willing to bear the cost of keeping them off the streets for ever, hence continuing efforts to reduce sentences early parole etc, and the death penalty does not carry the majority support of the nation any more. Throw in that any attempts to act on the problem will be taken as an assault on this/that or the other community/ethnic group, all with their own lobby groups within govt/parliament. Serious remedial action is not likely to be forthcoming, the politicians will froth at the mouth for a while, chuck a few at some local communities from which the problem appears to stem, then pass it on as they slip through the ever revolving door that is political life in this country these days. They really are too scared to act for fear of alienating their political grass roots support.

[agricola]

As I said before, the police should've done things American style

Fire a dozen bullets into any black person they don't like the look of?    Hmmmmm.

No, he's not saying that is he. Shame on you.


I'll try and explain in simpleton terms for you.


Where an individual, regardless of colour/race/sexual orientation/handedness, has half hacked off the head of another person in the public domain, and is continuing to hack off the remainder of the connection with a very sharp implement, the responsible authority has the approval to terminate said assailant to prevent further loss/injury to other citizens.


I hope that suffices

[VNA]

Throw in that any attempts to act on the problem will be taken as an assault on this/that or the other community/ethnic group, all with their own lobby groups within govt/parliament.

I don't see why that would be the case.  The right actions can only have positive results.

[VNA]

No, he's not saying that is he. Shame on you.

What he said was;

the police should've done things American style

Which is open to interpretation

Where an individual, regardless of colour/race/sexual orientation/handedness, has half hacked off the head of another person in the public domain, and is continuing to hack off the remainder of the connection with a very sharp implement, the responsible authority has the approval to terminate said assailant to prevent further loss/injury to other citizens.

Which is your interpretation.  And in any case you are wrong.  The police have the right to use reasonable and appropriate force to protect themselves and the public.  They do not have a license to kill.


What I said is;

Further in the Lee Rigby case the police defended themselves, used appropriate force and made arrests.  They did not act as  judge, jury and executioners as Darrsi would have them. 

And indeed the police acted appropriately, and with absolute professionalism in the most extreme of circumstances.  Not to mention the suspects actually wanted the police to kill them.

the police should've done things American style

But anyway, as such a statement is open to interpretation, and in an attempt to get this thread back on track, how about this for American style.  American style that was studied by the VRU (Violence Reduction Unit) in Scotland.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/0...story.html


I think in both in Boston and in Scotland the view taken is “Violence is preventable, not inevitable”  If you move beyond knee jerk responses real progress is possible and demonstrably achievable. 

[Frosties]

No, he's not saying that is he. Shame on you.

What he said was;

the police should've done things American style

Which is open to interpretation

Where an individual, regardless of colour/race/sexual orientation/handedness, has half hacked off the head of another person in the public domain, and is continuing to hack off the remainder of the connection with a very sharp implement, the responsible authority has the approval to terminate said assailant to prevent further loss/injury to other citizens.

Which is your interpretation.  And in any case you are wrong.  The police have the right to use reasonable and appropriate force to protect themselves and the public.  They do not have a license to kill.

Brilliant....


"Open to interpretation"  - but only your interpretation is the right one. Feckin priceless  :lol :lol :lol :lol


Now jog on..........

[VNA]

"Open to interpretation"  - but only your interpretation is the right one. Feckin priceless  [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img] [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img] [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img] [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img]

Hmmm

the responsible authority has the approval to terminate said assailant to prevent further loss/injury to other citizens.

Is clearly not correct.  And nor is it what actually happened.  Now is it?

[mtread]

I see now it's only Theresa May who thinks cutting police numbers is not linked to the increase in knife crime

[tommyardin]

[size=2em]OK.  Xenophobic then.[/size]

Maybe the odd argumentative prick from Scotland, you could be right there.  [img alt=:rollin]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/img]

Dunno why that came oot sae large. :eek

I think it is called shouting  :rollin

[tommyardin]

A simple yes or no to my original post would have been good wasn't looking for a debate about who/why it's committed,  but  how do we stop or control it. Is it just humans who are capable of killing for other reasons than food.

Don’t forget the daleks

[Grahamm]

you talk about them being judge, jury and executioner.... You truly haven't got a clue.

Perhaps you should ask Jean Charles de Menezes' opinion on that.

Or maybe the police who lied and *lied* and LIED to try to cover up the fact that they *MURDERED* an innocent man...

But, I'm sure you'll claim that that was different from shooting someone who may be mentally ill or wants to commit "suicide by cop"...

[steve 10562cc]

The police are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't by different sections of the of society. Those fire arms officers have split seconds under extreme circumstances to make that judgement whether to fire or not. The majority of society just thankful they are there and it's not us having to make that call. VNA I might be making a habit of this but I agree with you about the officer actions in the Lee Rigby that pair of low life are better in prison  having to watch their backs every time they step out their cells one day prison officers wont be on hand to protect them.

[darrsi]

So the police have apparently now arrested someone over that 17yr old girls random stabbing last weekend.
Obviously very early days yet so no guarantees whatsoever, but he was nicked over 100 miles away from the scene, and if it is him then that wasn't a bad bit of detecting at all.

[mtread]

Agreed. The police's best weapon is intelligence. Such as the huge number of terrorist incidents they have foiled.
As Grahamm says though, the problem is when the police do inevitably make mistakes, they cover up.

[dazza]

This is what our youth need more of in today's society... A good ole free for all, not a weapon in sight and the good old coppers happily spectating.
Kind of reminds me of some of my family get together's.  :lol




https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_f...9201578289

[VNA]

Quote from: dazza on 05 March 2019, 01:25:38 PM

    you talk about them being judge, jury and executioner.... You truly haven't got a clue.


Perhaps you should ask Jean Charles de Menezes' opinion on that.

Or maybe the police who lied and *lied* and LIED to try to cover up the fact that they *MURDERED* an innocent man...

But, I'm sure you'll claim that that was different from shooting someone who may be mentally ill or wants to commit "suicide by cop"...

Yes indeed, another reason why the police are perhaps minded to stick to minimum or appropriate use of force. 

VNA I might be making a habit of this but I agree with you about the officer actions in the Lee Rigby that pair of low life are better in prison  having to watch their backs every time they step out their cells one day prison officers wont be on hand to protect them.

I agree Steve.  The Jean Charles de Menezes shooting rightly outraged the nation.  Not to mention the lies put out at the time by official sources and further shit stirring by the usual Sun, Mail, Express papers.  But the officers arriving on scene at the horrific Lee Rigby murder behaved impeccably under the most stressful and extreme circumstances. 

[VNA]

[img alt=:z]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/z.gif[/img] Anyway......... knife crime, what's the solution?

Umm sorry aboot tha.

I guess what some of youse foccers are goin tae huv tae geit yer heids roond is that extreme deterrents such as stringing offenders up, or judge, jury and executioner police tactics, short sharp shock and national service or whatever.  None of them work and if anything will just make matters worse.  Yes, they are crowd pleasing, create attention grabbing headlines and make good macho pish talk doon the pub, but that’s about it.


Afraid if you want results, you’re gonna have tae look at some of the so called do-gooder, wet behind the ears liberal leftie community project approaches.  A la Boston and Glasgow VRU initiatives.  They have a proven track record of delivering results.  Maybe with luck London and England as a whole can learn new tricks along these lines to the benefit of all. 



In the short term a police crackdown, stop and search, along with a knife amnesty will help, but without the long-term investment in your communities, which is sadly lacking, you’ll be onto plums.

[darrsi]

[img alt=:z]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/z.gif[/img] Anyway......... knife crime, what's the solution?

Umm sorry aboot tha.

I guess what some of youse foccers are goin tae huv tae geit yer heids roond is that extreme deterrents such as stringing offenders up, or judge, jury and executioner police tactics, short sharp shock and national service or whatever.  None of them work and if anything will just make matters worse.  Yes, they are crowd pleasing, create attention grabbing headlines and make good macho pish talk doon the pub, but that’s about it.


Afraid if you want results, you’re gonna have tae look at some of the so called do-gooder, wet behind the ears liberal leftie community project approaches.  A la Boston and Glasgow VRU initiatives.  They have a proven track record of delivering results.  Maybe with luck London and England as a whole can learn new tricks along these lines to the benefit of all. 



In the short term a police crackdown, stop and search, along with a knife amnesty will help, but without the long-term investment in your communities, which is sadly lacking, you’ll be onto plums.

Think you'll find that stringing them up will 100% stop them from reoffending.

[mtread]

Think you'll find that stringing them up will 100% stop them from reoffending.

Yep, even the ones who didn't do it....

[agricola]

[img alt=:z]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/z.gif[/img] Anyway......... knife crime, what's the solution?

Umm sorry aboot tha.

I guess what some of youse foccers are goin tae huv tae geit yer heids roond is that extreme deterrents such as stringing offenders up, or judge, jury and executioner police tactics, short sharp shock and national service or whatever.  None of them work and if anything will just make matters worse.  Yes, they are crowd pleasing, create attention grabbing headlines and make good macho pish talk doon the pub, but that’s about it.


Afraid if you want results, you’re gonna have tae look at some of the so called do-gooder, wet behind the ears liberal leftie community project approaches.  A la Boston and Glasgow VRU initiatives.  They have a proven track record of delivering results.  Maybe with luck London and England as a whole can learn new tricks along these lines to the benefit of all. 



In the short term a police crackdown, stop and search, along with a knife amnesty will help, but without the long-term investment in your communities, which is sadly lacking, you’ll be onto plums.

All that twaddle has been tried before. And failed. Thats why we are where we're at now. Remember Heseltine and his vow to cure the "sink estates". Failed. A ban on selling knifes, failed, since most (I imagine) just get out out of the kitchen drawer. Stop and search, coupled with  a deterrent, and meaningful sentencing.