EU!

[Grahamm]

Yes, the way it's done is unfair - I'm all for everyone paying taxes, but if you earn £30k a year and pay £22% tax, why should you pay 50% when you earn over £150k.

Surely the idea of everyone paying the same % is what makes taxes fair.

Imagine a pile of bricks needs to be moved. You have two people to do the work, one is 6' tall and built like a brick sh!thouse, the other is 5' tall and weighs 7 stone wringing wet.

The 7 stone person picks up a couple of bricks because that's all they can manage, staggers across to the new location and puts them down.

The 6' person picks up two bricks in one hand, strolls across and puts them down.

Surely the idea of everyone carrying the same load is what makes it fair...

If we all pay the same %, the more you earn, the more you pay - that is totally fair.

You forget that taxes like VAT are regressive, the less you earn, the more they affect you. Richer people do not spend the same proportion of their income as the poor do, so pay less.

But if you prefer a system of "Mine! Mine! Mine!" or "Screw you, I'm alright, Jack", that's up to your conscience.

[Millietant]

Your analogy Grahamm,


Imagine a pile of bricks needs to be moved. You have two people to do the work, one is 6' tall and built like a brick sh!thouse, the other is 5' tall and weighs 7 stone wringing wet.

The 7 stone person picks up a couple of bricks because that's all they can manage, staggers across to the new location and puts them down.

The 6' person picks up two bricks in one hand, strolls across and puts them down.

Surely the idea of everyone carrying the same load is what makes it fair...

I think you're agreeing me - if one is stronger, they carry proportionally more bricks.....

But, using your analogy, if the 7 stone person is half as strong as the 6' person, then the 6' person should carry double what the 7 stone person carries..... Nice and fair and balanced.

But.... What you're saying otherwise, the way I'm reading it, is because the 6' person is twice as strong, he should carry three times as many bricks - you're changing the ratio (just like my comments about 22% and 50% tax rates).

Like I said, I'm not one for the "I'm all right Jack" approach that you seem to misunderstand my comments as,  I'm for everyone contributing the same proportionally. Equality for all in taxes.

But, I don't begrudge anyone who reaps the rewards of their efforts or the risks they take, why should we let jealousy rule our lives - unless the risks/efforts are from criminal activity, or cheating others - these people should have their assets seized, sold off and the proceeds given to their victims.

[Val]

I am tired of all this there are no facts bs. Here are some facts for you, deal with it  :lol

! No longer available

[Millietant]

[Dead Eye]

I've generally been keeping on the side lines of this (on the forums) as I'm not up for a long drawn out debate behind a keyboard, however I will be voting Remain. In general I don't think either of the pro-leave and pro-remain groups who are actively pushing their agenda have done a particularly good job; there's been a lot of hyperbole, theory and scaremongering which has left, I believe, a large proportion of people confused.

Ultimately however, in my opinion, this feels almost similar to the last general election. I see* a lot more pro-leave propaganda and articles floating around and being broadcast just as I saw a lot more pro-Labour information, but I believe the actual vote will go the other way. I expect the general public to vote to Remain, though I'll admit it will probably be close; in the region of a 5-10 point difference


* This is based solely on my own personal experience and may not truly reflect the information that others see on a day-to-day basis

[fazersharp]

Sometimes I think the polls have been faked in the past and also this time will predict an out vote just before voting with the sole purpose of energising the in camp to get out and vote 

[HarryHornby]

[quote author=Val link=topic=20295.msg234369#msg234369 date=1466026512]
meanwhile in Wales  :rollin

GENIUS POST!!!! Hahahahahaa brilliant. Flippin needed that hehe...the polls are aswaying......got question time on now....
[/quote]

[unfazed]

Does it really matter to the ordinary Joe Public if UK are in or out of the EU. :rolleyes
Majority of those on welfare will not see and difference and probably won't bother voting which is the norm according to statistics.

Does not bother me what they, but will be a pain in the arse having to go through customs when going to Plymouth to get the ferry to Northern Spain fed up of riding down through France from Cherburg or Roscoff :eek

[BIG MAC]

Yes it matters because if the Jocks walk..there will be no rUK benefits system as the rUK will be on the bare bones of its arse and not able to service its debts.

[Grahamm]

I think you're agreeing me - if one is stronger, they carry proportionally more bricks.....

No, I'm pointing out that, under the flat rate tax system that you advocate, those who can carry a proportionally larger burden *do not*.

It's not simply a case of "if everyone pays the same percentage of their income as tax, that's fair" because it ignores what's called the "marginal propensity to consume", ie the proportion of your income that you actually spend.

If you earn £1000 a month (after tax) and spend £1000 a month, your MPtC is 100%. If (to pick a figure) you earn £10,000 a month (after tax), however, you are very unlikely to spend £10,000 a month, you might spend (to pick another figure) £4000, ie your MPtC is 40%. The second person is left with £6000 a month to save, the first person has *nothing* to save because they have to spend it all to live.

It's all very well saying "equality in taxes", but the effect of tax on the low earners is *much* greater than the effect on the higher earners. Simply saying "they pay the same proportion" misses this fundamental issue. This is the misunderstanding that gives us the claims of the so-called "trickle down" effect where, supposedly, the poorer benefit from the richers' spending, except that much of what the richer people earn is *not* spent, but is put away in financial institutions which only benefit those who can actually afford to invest in them.

Getting back to the original subject about the "extra amount" that the EU "demanded" from us (according to the terms that *we* agreed to!), it goes to people who *will* spend it and put it back into circulation which is my point.

[fazersharp]

Getting back to the original subject about the "extra amount" that the EU "demanded" from us (according to the terms that *we* agreed to!),

If then we did agree to it then why did Cameron make lots and lots of big noises saying we wont pay and then very quietly paid it when the British public wasn't looking, very trustworthy actions from a man telling us to stay in the EU.
Whenever an IN politician speaks they say they want to stay in a reformed EU, Cameron had his chance to make changes and got nothing even under the threat of a brexit the EU still gave him nothing so what chances are there of any EU reform if we vote to stay, it will be a green light for even more EU.
 

[VNA]

But since they lost, they have been repeatedly saying how they will use new circumstances to push through another vote to try to get their minority position changed.

Putting aside for now that the Better Together campaign broke the terms of The Edinburgh Agreement and cheated in the closing stages of the Scottish Indy Ref;

Well we were repeatedly told by Better Together that an Indy Scotland would be thrown out of the EU and not be able to re-join, and that the way to ensure we remain as part of the EU, which it appears the majority of Scots wish to do so, was to reject Independence.

Vote NO to guarantee EU membership was the message. 

Now there is the possibility of a major change in circumstance and Scotland possibly being dragged out of the EU against it’s will and contrary to what we had been promised in 2014.  Hence there may be a drive for a second Indy Ref.

Yes, the way it's done is unfair - I'm all for everyone paying taxes, but if you earn £30k a year and pay £22% tax, why should you pay 50% when you earn over £150k.

I agree, you should pay 50% if you earn more than 150,000 a year, it should be more like 60%.
Let us not forget that there is a ceiling on NI contributions, you only pay NI contributions on your income up to a certain point.  Further we have a great many flat rate taxes that impact on lower earners in a way that they do not on upper income earners.  Ie VAT, petrol tax, insurance tax etc etc.

In the Uk the more you earn the less you pay in tax as a percentage of your income.  It’s about time that was addressed.

Anyway VOTE REMAIN!

[VNA]

Of course I haven't mentioned council tax, stamp duty, in fact the cost of housing in the first place, all that impacts on the working  person in a way it simply does not on high earners and the rich.

What we have in the UK is in fact socialism in reverse, a sort of socialism for corporations and the rich.

But again none of these things are the fault of the EU.

People get the governments they deserve.  Vote Tory and you deserve to get focced, unless you are rich or a member of the establishment that is.

And we'll get focced even more by the Tory scum bag bastards if we leave the EU when they scrap all the Eu employment laws.

Vote leave if you like it up the .........

[Frosties]

[size=1em]A farmer named Sam was overseeing his herd in a remote hilly pasture in Hereford when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.  The driver, a young man in a Brioni® suit, Gucci® shoes, RayBan® sunglasses and YSL® tie, leaned out the window and asked the farmer, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, will you give me a calf?" [/size]

[size=1em]Sam looks at the man, who obviously is a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing animals and calmly answers, "Sure, why not?"[/size]

[size=1em]The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell® notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3® cell phone and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.[/size]

[size=1em]The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop® and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg, Germany ... within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot® that the image has been processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL® database through an ODBC connected Excel® spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry® and, after a few minutes, receives a response.[/size]

[size=1em]Finally, he prints out a full-colour, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet® printer, turns to the Farmer and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."[/size]

[size=1em]"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves,"  says Sam.[/size]

[size=1em]He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his BMW.[/size]

[size=1em]Then Sam says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"[/size]

[size=1em]The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"[/size]

[size=1em]"You're a Member of the European Parliament", says Sam.[/size]

[size=1em]"Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"[/size]

[size=1em]"No guessing required." answered Sam. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of Euros worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter.[/size]

[size=1em]This is a herd of sheep.  Now give me back my dog.”[/size]

[size=1em]AND THAT FRIENDS, so I am reliably told, IS WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU [/size] :lol :lol

[Val]

good joke Frostie  :thumbup

I have one shorter and better:

Boris Johnson will make TV apology if Brexit triggers recession...

[Grahamm]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=20295.msg234980#msg234980 date=1466527071]

Getting back to the original subject about the "extra amount" that the EU "demanded" from us (according to the terms that *we* agreed to!),

If then we did agree to it then why did Cameron make lots and lots of big noises saying we wont pay and then very quietly paid it when the British public wasn't looking, very trustworthy actions from a man telling us to stay in the EU.[/quote]

Because he wanted to look "tough" to the public and the media. But if you think the Out campaign are being any more "trustworthy" then you're deluding yourself.

[Grahamm]

Here's proof that the EU Referendum is just an internal squabble in the Tory Party that the rest of the country has been dragged into...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu...m-35616946

[fazersharp]

[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=20295.msg234983#msg234983 date=1466527804]
[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=20295.msg234980#msg234980 date=1466527071]

Getting back to the original subject about the "extra amount" that the EU "demanded" from us (according to the terms that *we* agreed to!),

If then we did agree to it then why did Cameron make lots and lots of big noises saying we wont pay and then very quietly paid it when the British public wasn't looking, very trustworthy actions from a man telling us to stay in the EU.[/quote]

Because he wanted to look "tough" to the public and the media. But if you think the Out campaign are being any more "trustworthy" then you're deluding yourself.
[/quote]

[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=20295.msg234983#msg234983 date=1466527804]
[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=20295.msg234980#msg234980 date=1466527071]

Getting back to the original subject about the "extra amount" that the EU "demanded" from us (according to the terms that *we* agreed to!),

If then we did agree to it then why did Cameron make lots and lots of big noises saying we wont pay and then very quietly paid it when the British public wasn't looking, very trustworthy actions from a man telling us to stay in the EU.[/quote]

Because he wanted to look "tough" to the public and the media. But if you think the Out campaign are being any more "trustworthy" then you're deluding yourself.
[/quote]
No you are right I do not trust anyone, the only person I trust is me.

[johnakay]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...e=57F42443

[Millietant]

Here's proof that the EU Referendum is just an internal squabble in the Tory Party that the rest of the country has been dragged into...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu...m-35616946

Do you really believe that ? - "an internal squabble in the Tory Party that the rest of the country has been dragged into" ! As a country we've been complaining about EU unfairness for years.

Remember the BSE crisis - the French banned our beef because of a few cases of BSE. The French have had BSE in their beef cattle for years and never bothered doing anything about it, but oh no, as soon as there's an excuse, they go all parochial. Where was the EU governing body then, ensuring our free trade wasn't unfairly restricted (not to mention the lamb export issues), for ages after we'd sorted ours out.

Presumably 100% of the Labour Party and their MP's are all in full agreement on their position on the referendum and the EU, and the Lib Dems.......

This isn't about Party Politics, whatever the party. It's about the people deciding whether to be part of the EU, or not.

Honestly, I want us to stay in, but I just can't trust the whole EU enough, right now, to vote remain.

Especially after the EU leader's comments that "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned".

According to him, we already have the best possible deal. If we vote to stay, how are we going to change things, or get a better deal - we've just been told it won't happen by the man in charge !