Olympic Conclusions

[Rusty]

Slaninar I agree with you. The ills you describe are due to globalisation who's aim is the destruction of the nation state - which is what the EU is all about. This is why we must be free of it, despite VNA's protestations that it can't happen.

As I've pointed out, it is not going to happen.
Oh, English law is not applicable in Scotland.  And maybe just maybe you have grasped that England can't hold an in/out EU referendum?

English law need not be applicable in Scotland, furthermore should Scotland become independent it will become irrelevant in this equation. Which is why I too hope for independence, a nice little side effect.

Firstly it's not about some mad rose tinted nationalism, it's about politics.  Scotland once again has a UK government it did not vote for.  We had 17 years years of Tory rule not that long ago that we did not vote for, and here we are again.

The thrust of your argument appears to be that Scotland labours under an unelected government? And presumably you think this unfair and wish to break free from the union?

I still don't know what you are on about.  What is it that you think 'they' are trying to take away from you, though you claim, whatever it is, they can't take it away anyway.  How very interesting!

I'll link this to the point above. Many feel that England, or Britain if you include the other parties are also ruled by a government it didn't vote for - namely the EU. The sham puppet parade in Westminster no longer make the majority of our laws, thus cannot be considered to be representative of the people.

Just as Scotland wants independence from the UK, the remaining parties want independence from the EU. The 'They' you inquire about are therefore the EU mandarins who follow the globalist agenda. What it is they wish to remove is our Sovereignty, the right to be governed by and of ourselves. As I said, the Magna Carta guarantees personal sovereignty in perpetuity, something that was done by our forefathers who had the foresight to understand that now and again tyrants will attempt to remove our freedoms.

Well yeah.  It wasn't difficult to see it coming.  Brown's miracle economy was no miracle, it was built on rising asset prices and credit

Indeed it was, and as you say it wasn't difficult to see it coming, yet no notice was taken of those that could see it coming.  The same was true of mass immigration. Living in Britain in recent years has been akin to travelling on a coach which was intended for Blackpool, yet the driver decides all on his own that against the protestations of the passengers he'll take us to Bradford instead. When asked why he defied the will of the passengers the driver retorts;

"I don't think people want Blackpool so I'm not going to take you there, despite what it said on the front of the bus!"

Put succinctly, we saw the problems that mass immigration was causing but were ignored and smeared as racist. (Scotland absorbed only a tiny fraction of total immigration by the way - hardly affected in relative terms) We predicted that an economy built on borrowing was unsustainable but were dismissed as fools by the 'Iron Chancellor'. We now see the EU as a money pit and looming disaster and wish to leave, and are told we cannot by a chap that wants independence for Scotland for much the same reasons. Go figure!

[VNA]

It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy.

Then that's why we are focced.  Democracy isn't just for once every 4 or 5 years, it's for every day.  So perhaps the reason you are getting focced over is because nobody is prepared to engage in politics other than to hopelessly cast their vote every few years.

[VNA]

The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado.
furthermore should Scotland become independent it will become irrelevant in this equation. Which is why I too hope for independence, a nice little side effect.

Ah so it can go ahead without further ado, as long as Scotland votes for independence in 2014.  I see!  But it still won't be an English referendum, now will it?

The ills you describe are due to globalisation who's aim is the destruction of the nation state

Globalisation is the new imperialism.  It's the exploitation of empire without the need to govern.  What you need to do is move the Global free market towards a Global market based on fair trade and common standards.  Much like the EU.

Many feel that England, or Britain if you include the other parties are also ruled by a government it didn't vote for - namely the EU.

Can you explain how it is you feel that the EU rules you?

P

ut succinctly, we saw the problems that mass immigration was causing but were ignored and smeared as racist.

What problems?

We predicted that an economy built on borrowing was unsustainable but were dismissed as fools by the 'Iron Chancellor'.

Who is we?

We now see the EU as a money pit and looming disaster and wish to leave, and are told we cannot by a chap that wants independence for Scotland for much the same reasons.

I want Independence within the EU.  The fear that the Tories may pull out of Europe (though it's way over egged and it won't happen for the reasons I've outlined) is yet another good reason for Scotland to leave the UK.

Commonwealth games anybody?

[Slaninar]

It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy.

Democracy isn't just for once every 4 or 5 years, it's for every day. 

In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged. They are trying to destroy even families. Look at the new laws that let kids report their parrents for "abuse" and have them imprisoned (at least in my country - you can no longer smack your kid when it does something stupid - I'm against real abuse, but this is ridiculous). All made so pepole don't look far ahead, don't realise how they're all being fucked and even if they do realise - can't get organized and do anything. Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones - Orwell's 1984 at it's best. Official government is "elected", changeable, but they're all the same, none of them can get publicity and campaign money if they are going to try doing anything against those who hold 99% of the wealth.

[VNA]

In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged.

Yup exactly what I'm trying to say.  We get the government and society we deserve. 

Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones

And the foc-u web site?

Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)

It's a bit like the young lads at work who'll say to me "What's the union ever done for us?"  I'll reply "what have you done for the union?"

I'll point out that the safe work environment, a decent rate of pay, welfare facilities, pensions etc etc that we enjoy (some of us, for now), are all becuase their forefathers organised and fought for their rights.

Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years.  Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.

[Slaninar]

Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)

You really buy that "spontaneous people rising"?  Hmm...

Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years.  Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.

Agree... except.. lottery tickets?! What about beer and pretty women?!

[VNA]

Beer makes women look pretty.

[know your limitations]

[size=1em]also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying[/size]

Don't sound very bright to me.

[SteveH41]

Beer makes women look pretty.

Amen to that............

[Rusty]

[quote author=Rusty link=topic=4200.msg35057#msg35057 date=1345109562][size=1em]also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying[/size]

Don't sound very bright to me.[/quote]


They are intelligent, disciplined, self motivated and brave young individuals. It may not sound bright to you, but perhaps the yardstick you measure them by is one of different criterea.  By your reasoning the smart ones will be those hanging around your local street corner supping Cider I take it?

[Rusty]

  Ah so it can go ahead without further ado, as long as Scotland votes for independence in 2014.  I see! But it still won't be an English referendum, now will it?

I don't understand your fixation with the English/ Scottish thing? Scotland is part of the UK whether you like it or not, therefore a UK wide referendum can be held. Devolved governments are still subservient to Westminster. Scotland could of course could do a Nick Clegg style spitting out of the Dummy over future independence, which is why it would be nice to have them out of the equation.

What you need to do is move the Global free market towards a Global market based on fair trade and common standards.  Much like the EU.

And what of the right to self determination? The EU is a federalist entity, and a corrupt one at that. Even without a referendum it would be enough to withhold all monetary contributions until such time as the books were signed off as balanced. That's a perfectly reasonable request don't you think? In these straightened times it would be remiss of us to do otherwise.

Can you explain how it is you feel that the EU rules you? 

Certainly, where would you like me to begin? Anything from directives on fuel to the type of light bulbs available. Green energy quotas that push up the cost of energy and blight the landscape, Islamic terrorists we can't deport, murderers that have a right to a family life - the list goes on. Now, in return can you tell me how you feel the EU benefits me?

What problems regarding mass immigration?

Well I did say that Scotland took proportionally less immigrants than any other part of the union, and if you have  to ask such a question then you're obviously unqualified to discuss it objectively. Maybe you should visit some of the area's that have experienced mass immigration over a so short a period to see for yourself? The problems that have arisen were inevitable, again it's a question of allowing passengers on a bus when the seats and standing room are full then acting surprised at the results. What problems you say? I see no ships?

Commonwealth games anybody?

I wonder if Scotland will be attending?

Olympics 2016 anybody?

[Rusty]

In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged.

Yup exactly what I'm trying to say.  We get the government and society we deserve. 

Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones

And the foc-u web site?

Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)

It's a bit like the young lads at work who'll say to me "What's the union ever done for us?"  I'll reply "what have you done for the union?"

I'll point out that the safe work environment, a decent rate of pay, welfare facilities, pensions etc etc that we enjoy (some of us, for now), are all becuase their forefathers organised and fought for their rights.

Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years.  Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.

I'll finish by saying I entirely agree with all of the above post VNR (shock-Horror)  :lol


Ultimately I think we both want social justice but approach it from different angles. In this country the people are governed by consent, and as previously mention the alternative we have in law (being English) is to withdraw that consent. It's perfectly lawful under common law. Slaninar look up 'Lawful rebellion'.


If successive governments continue to insist on bleeding the people white and over regulating every area of life, then I believe that unrest and civil disobedience will follow. The EU is flawed by fiscal irresponsibility and the tendency to micro manage our lives which is why I lean toward greater independence and the re asserting of national sovereignty. 


Only achievable if the nation tears itself away from the X factor for a while to see what's actually being done to the.

[Slaninar]

They are intelligent, disciplined, self motivated and brave young individuals. It may not sound bright to you, but perhaps the yardstick you measure them by is one of different criterea.  By your reasoning the smart ones will be those hanging around your local street corner supping Cider I take it?

Individual? No, last time I checked, in the army one is just a number. Paid to do as told, kill or be killed, without thinking.
Intelligent? Doubtful, considering the profession of choice.
Disciplined, self motivated, brave... could be.

[goldfazer]

Nazi's the lot of 'em.

Well, that's got that out of the way, and not before time

[VNA]

Scotland is part of the UK whether you like it or not, therefore a UK wide referendum can be held.

But you wanted an English one?  Good to see you have finally accepted that that is simply not possible.

Devolved governments are still subservient to Westminster.

No they are not.  Wrong again.  Powers that are devolved cannot be overruled by Westminster.  That Tony Blair basically did that to Jack McConnel got Labour wiped out when it came to the ballot box.  Labour's historic long term rule in Scotland is in tatters.
Westminster also told Wee Eck - you will not be holding a referendum on Scottish Independence as you have no legal right to do so, such matters are not devolved to The Scottish Parliament.  Wee Eck's response was, oh well, we'll just hold a consultative referendum and sort the legal stuff out later.  Westminster quickly did a U-turn. 

Certainly, where would you like me to begin? Anything from directives on fuel to the type of light bulbs available. Green energy quotas that push up the cost of energy and blight the landscape, Islamic terrorists we can't deport, murderers that have a right to a family life - the list goes on. Now, in return can you tell me how you feel the EU benefits me?

So pretty minor stuff.  Perhaps just you've been reading the Daily Mail or something.  So for the sake of getting out of the excellent Human Rights Charter, a few lightbulbs, and some green energy targets that ain't enforceable (non of which we objected to or were enforced on us) you are going to turn the UK's back on open access to the world's biggest single market, and watch half our industry pack up and move across the channel.  Nice one.
But I wouldn't worry, I'm happy to stick a very large bet on the UK staying in the EU forever and a day.  Sure there's danger at the moment, self interested wealthy loonies trying to get us out and they are finding influence, but the reality is, for the UK pulling out of the EU, it'll make the Euro crises look like a storm in the tea cup from our perspective.

Well I did say that Scotland took proportionally less immigrants than any other part of the union, and if you have  to ask such a question then you're obviously unqualified to discuss it objectively.

Really!  How nice of you to let me know so.  Under the dispersal programme Scotland has taken quite a large slice of the UK's Asylum Seekers over the last 10 years or so.  I've been involved with campaigning on refugee rights and around integration projects for quite some time.  One thing I've learned is that community cohesion  and integration doesn't happen by itself, you have to make it happen. 
But anyway you didn't answer my question.  Why am I bothering?

I wonder if Scotland will be attending?

Well we are hosting them.

[Tori]

Yawn.....

Can't you take this elsewhere if you want to fight?

[VNA]

Ultimately I think we both want social justice but approach it from different angles. In this country the people are governed by consent, and as previously mention the alternative we have in law (being English) is to withdraw that consent. It's perfectly lawful under common law. Slaninar look up 'Lawful rebellion'.

The day civil disobedience and protest is not tolerated, well it's generally a good sign that your democracy is dead.  Check out what's going down in Russia right now. 



Not that to influence government or policy you have to do either, but sometimes it is the only way.  It is however in this climate of fear and high security, intense surveillance  and multi-national very conservative right wing employers increasingly difficult for people to stand up and openly express their concerns. 



Add that to three political parties in a UK sense that all look the same, say and do roughly the same things.  Well you do wonder about the health of our democracy in a UK wide sense.  We've also failed spectacularly to kill off the first past the post system that has driven us into this centre right straight jacket.  Add in the money that the big three parties (though it'll be back to two shortly) have, and what hope is there for real political democracy.  That's another reason for me wanting Independence, democracy in the UK is dying on it's feet.  And it's got now't to do with EU membership.

that unrest and civil disobedience will follow.

It may come due to social injustice, no jobs, no community, no hope, an ever increasing gap between those with and those without.  Company directors stealing ever bigger piles of cash, and making sure that not just they don't pay tax but their company pays no corporation tax, while they keep screwing their employees terms and conditions, as well as drawing up black lists of potential 'trouble makers'.  Add in to that a total disconnect with politics, two big parties that are both the same.  And sure, at some point the lid could come flying off the pressure cooker.
Some in the EU may dream of a federal Europe, but the reality was it could never be, we were always far too diverse for that,  and now that dream is in absolute tatters.  It may be time to review and reform the EU, but dismantle it or pull out - never.  And the EU is most certainly not the cause of our current woes, it's a factor, but not the cause and getting out will only make the UK's current woes considerably worse, and then some.

[alan09]

Beer makes women look pretty.

what! even scottish women :lol

[Rusty]

But you wanted an English one?  Good to see you have finally accepted that that is simply not possible. 

Obfuscation on your part. I stated that I wanted an in/out referendum plain and simple, along it appears, with a frighteningly large percentage of the population if the wriggling of the political classes is anything to go by. So you now admit that a referendum is possible having said it wasn't?

 
No they are not.  Wrong again.  Powers that are devolved cannot be overruled by Westminster. Blah blah... Westminster quickly did a U-turn.

So you are saying that to overrule the devolved parliament would be unconstitutional is that it?

So pretty minor stuff.  Perhaps just you've been reading the Daily Mail or something. 

Ah! We're back with the attempted stereotyping are we. No I don't read the daily mail actually not that it matters. Yes pretty minor stuff, like incitement to murder, terrorism, overcrowded Hospitals and schools, crippling fuel bills, attacks on christianity - you know the sort of thing, don't know what all the fuss is about really.

I'm happy to stick a very large bet on the UK staying in the EU forever and a day

Will you be betting that in Greek Euro's, Italian Portugese or Spanish?

  Under the dispersal programme Scotland has taken quite a large slice of the UK's Asylum Seekers over the last 10 years or so.  I've been involved with campaigning on refugee rights and around integration projects for quite some time. 

Wrong again.

  But anyway you didn't answer my question.  Why am I bothering? 

 

Because you can't help yourself, it comes across in the tone of your posts.

  The day civil disobedience and protest is not tolerated, well it's generally a good sign that your democracy is dead. 

 

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/roger-hayes-arrested-tried-secret-court-imprisoned

  Some in the EU may dream of a federal Europe, but the reality was it could never be, we were always far too diverse for that,  and now that dream is in absolute tatters.  It may be time to review and reform the EU, but dismantle it or pull out - never.  And the EU is most certainly not the cause of our current woes, it's a factor, but not the cause and getting out will only make the UK's current woes considerably worse, and then some.

I'm glad you are finally admitting what I've been saying all along. Now the only thing that remains is to let the people decide if they wish to be in or out rather than persons like yourself tell them it's in for their own good.  It's called democracy, you never know it might even catch on.


It's been fun, enjoy the Commonwealth games, hosted by Scotland huh? Ahh! So that's why no-one appears to care.

[VNA]

I stated that I wanted an in/out referendum plain and simple, along it appears, with a frighteningly large percentage of the population if the wriggling of the political classes is anything to go by. So you now admit that a referendum is possible having said it wasn't?

No you stated you wanted an in/out EU referendum in England.  I stated correctly that that simply is not possible.

So you are saying that to overrule the devolved parliament would be unconstitutional is that it?

Nope.  No you can't over rule devolved powers. 

Yes pretty minor stuff, like incitement to murder, terrorism, overcrowded Hospitals and schools, crippling fuel bills, attacks on christianity - you know the sort of thing, don't know what all the fuss is about really.

And where does the EU come into all this? 

Umm your chart is not concerning asylum seekers.  I was referring to asylum seekers.



However putting that aside it shows Scotland having 5% of "foreign-born population"  If you take into account Scotland's population, and the increase in recent years, it's a fair figure.  You have just shot down your own arguement. 

Another chart on that site suggests about 250,000 in Scotland.  And I hazard a guess that those will be concentrated in the central belt particularly Glasgow.  Oh look your chart shows over 300,000 plus a 133% increase in the last 15 years, the second highest in the UK!  And little in the way of problems!  Oh, I wonder how we managed that!

Because you can't help yourself, it comes across in the tone of your posts.

Thank-you.  Still not answering the question though, are you?

It's called democracy, you never know it might even catch on.

Yup and as you know we don't hold referendums on every issue.  And you have yet to come up with one valid reason why we should leave the EU. [img alt= width=32 height=32]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/GARETH%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/img]