EU!

[slappy]

Actually, can they be believed at all?

No, whichever party they belong to.

[Grahamm]

What bugs me is that "stayers" that say oh we get this grant and that funding and what ever else money to do whatever else, but the thing is its our chuffing money in the first place

And it's about 0.5% of our Gross Domestic Product. But, hey, let's just make people *think* that it's a lot of money and leave it at that...

[Grahamm]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is trust, these people asking for our remain vote are the same ones who have taken our country to an ilegal war, committed fraud by claiming expenses they were not entitled to, made promises to students only to back track once in power etc etc

Who believes they have our future in mind while they campaign, or is there another agenda

Actually, can they be believed at all?

You mean unlike Boris, Nigel, Michael and, of course, Rupert, that well known Australian Billionaire with an American Passport.

Yes, I'm sure that *they* all have *our* best interests at heart...

[fazersharp]

[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=20295.msg234593#msg234593 date=1466189486]
What bugs me is that "stayers" that say oh we get this grant and that funding and what ever else money to do whatever else, but the thing is its our chuffing money in the first place

And it's about 0.5% of our Gross Domestic Product. But, hey, let's just make people *think* that it's a lot of money and leave it at that...
[/quote]
It could be 1 pence for all I care the point still remains that it is our money that we sent to them and then THEY chose where it gos when it comes back

[mtread]

Which (like Norway) we would still be paying if we leave, but then without any vote at all......

[Bretty]

... which voids that point. Every argument for staying in (which I agree with in sentiment) all seem to be void.

So how much better off do YOU think you'll be if we left the EU? and do you think the government will give you the saving in cash or by cheque? Or improved public services. I don't think you'll see or get any of the above.

I love the sentiment of independence and 'making Britain great again' and all that.. but do our Muppet leaders know how to achieve this? They have no fricking idea, David Cameron is S*****g his pants that we will go out, he knows nothing about economic stimulus.. I think what we'll lose we'll lose quickly and what we'll gain we will gain slowly if at all. I'm preparing for a big recession!

I really do agree with the out campaign in sentiment but when you look at the reality and logic, there is no real benefit to leave.

Just my opinion.

Brett

[fazed]

I look at it this way, if we weren't in the eu and the referendum was for joining it as it stands with what it's done to Greece, Cyprus, the HQ in Brussels moving to Strasbourg once a month for no valid reasons and giving the
EU lawmakers primacy over our own parliament would you vote to join it?  If you wouldn't vote to join it then why would you vote to stay in it??

[Bretty]

Hypothetically, I agree with you.

But the reality is, you have to base your decision on where we are now and getting the best outcome. We can't turn back time unfortunately. We're already in and to go out would mean to literally go backwards.

I can see and understand the problems. They p*** me off, but going out doesn't change them and in my opinion the small changes we could make are not enough to offset the massive economic consequences.

Believe me, I would love to see England leave and be great, we save loads of money, we stop the immigrants, our economy grows exponentially... unfortunately all this will ever be is a dream.

The reality is, Our government could have stopped the 150,000 NON-eu migrants that entered the country in the last 12mths. They didn't!
The government will not give you a penny of anything they save. Austerity remember.
And as for growth, what will we sell to who? And how quickly?

If you could turn Britain back in time to any year, which year would you go back to? and what would that look like in a 2016 world?

Sorry if I'm ranting but I have gone through this a hundred times in my own head, because I really want to leave but have no logical justification for doing so. :-(

[johnakay]

I'm surprise that nobody mention the 24 million that the EU demanded because we did well last year  and Camoron said no but after xmas he paid up.
this convince me as well as other things to leave the EU.
[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)]Let's have a banter![/color][color=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/size]If you don’t understand what all the fuss is about. Here is the EU put simply.A son goes to his Dad having saved up some money from his weekend job.Son “ Dad I’ve saved up £350 pounds to buy the new laptop I need for my college course”Dad “Well done son, give the money to me and I’ll help you”Son “Ok now what?”Dad “I will allow you £185 pounds back less my handling fee of £5 so £180 which you may only spend on a new phone”Son “But I need a laptop!”Dad “No, we’ve decided you can only buy a phone and you may only buy a phone from Germany and it must be pink. You must also source the phone within 2 days otherwise I will not release the money”Son “But it’s my money!”Dad “I’m afraid you are a member of this family and you must contribute to everyone else’s needs. I will decide how the money is spent”Son “So what happens to the £165?”Dad “Well your sister needs a new dress”Son “She has already had many new dresses”Dad “We’ve put it to the vote and I’m afraid you’re outvoted”Son “But I need a laptop to continue my course!”Dad “My decision is final”Son “But that’s not fair, will I ever have a say in how my money is spent”Dad “No, and by the way we’ve got a couple more people moving into your room and you’ll have to pay for their keep”Son “Well I’m leaving then”Dad “Don’t be like that lad, we need your money. And if you leave you won’t be able to buy a pink phone from Germany you’ll have to buy one here instead”Son “I NEED A LAPTOP!”[/color]

[celticdog]

It's going to be close.

[slappy]

Ok, what happens if it is a dead heat ?

[mtread]

I get the casting vote  :thumbup

[Grahamm]

It could be 1 pence for all I care the point still remains that it is our money that we sent to them and then THEY chose where it gos when it comes back

And what do you think would happen to it if we left? Do you *really* believe that the bunch of right-wing neo-liberals who would take over would give it to the NHS etc as they claim? Remember these are people who support the idea of *privatising* the health service!

No, what would more likely happen is that they would use it to cut taxes for their mates, leaving the rest of us still (or even more) screwed

[markie_wales]

Ok, what happens if it is a dead heat ?

I'm Remain but hate Hipocracy - 1 vote to stay & we stay in. One vote to leave and "it's too important a decision when the vote is this close, instead of leaving we're going to...." and that annoys me even though it favours my opinion.

Cheers

Markie

[fazersharp]

I'm surprise that nobody mention the 24 million that the EU demanded because we did well last year  and Camoron said no but after xmas he paid up.

You are right I forgot about that one and it looks like everyone else has too- including the leaders of the out campaign

[slappy]

[quote author=johnakay link=topic=20295.msg234705#msg234705 date=1466272070]
I'm surprise that nobody mention the 24 million that the EU demanded because we did well last year  and Camoron said no but after xmas he paid up.

You are right I forgot about that one and it looks like everyone else has too- including the leaders of the out campaign
[/quote]

Maybe because it is an actual true fact, something that is in short supply in both the remain/leave campaign.

[Grahamm]

I'm surprise that nobody mention the 24 million that the EU demanded because we did well last year 

Yes, it's like HMRC demanding you pay more taxes because you earned more money last year. It's SO UNFAIR!!!

[Millietant]

I reckon this will be like the Scottish Independence vote - before the vote everyone was told by the pro independence lobby that this was a "once in a lifetime" chance (presumably because if the won they'd want to make sure no one could push a re-vote)

But since they lost, they have been repeatedly saying how they will use new circumstances to push through another vote to try to get their minority position changed.

Had the vote been for Independence, the I'd guess the other side would now be pushing for another referendum as well.

It's always the way, if you lose a vote, then go for another referendum. In today's world, nothing is certain.

If we vote to Remain, there will undoubtedly be another referendum if things change.

If we vote to Leave, there will undoubtedly be a future referendum about re-joining.

The one certain thing about politics is that nothing is certain.

[Millietant]

[quote author=johnakay link=topic=20295.msg234705#msg234705 date=1466272070]
I'm surprise that nobody mention the 24 million that the EU demanded because we did well last year 

Yes, it's like HMRC demanding you pay more taxes because you earned more money last year. It's SO UNFAIR!!!
[/quote]


Yes, the way it's done is unfair - I'm all for everyone paying taxes, but if you earn £30k a year and pay £22% tax, why should you pay 50% when you earn over £150k.

Surely the idea of everyone paying the same % is what makes taxes fair.

Just think about it, because you work your socks off, put in loads of extra time, take risks with your personal life (investing in your career), you should give 50% of your earnings back. Sorry mate, but that's just wrong.

If we all pay the same %, the more you earn, the more you pay - that is totally fair.

[taylor]

well said that man.