Engine oil

[VNA]

However, better oils will make engine use less fuel, have slightly more HP, last a bit longer.

I have to say I rather doubt it.    A 'better' oil might last longer, but it will have sod all effect on fuel consumption (unless you use something really nasty) and no effect on BHP (again unless you use something nasty.

Just get some half decent semi-synth, do regular changes and stop worrying about oil.

[nick crisp]

Worth reading Slaninars link on page one of this thread, especially "The Truth About Motorcycle Oils" chapter. All oil manufacturers claim increases in engine performance, fuel consumption and longevity when they bring new products onto the market. As has been previously discussed here, there are reasons not to trust some of these claims, but if you go to any reputable source, you will find similar claims made, and reasons given.
Not worrying, just interested.

[Slaninar]

I have to say I rather doubt it.    A 'better' oil might last longer, but it will have sod all effect on fuel consumption (unless you use something really nasty) and no effect on BHP (again unless you use something nasty.

Differences are slight. The biggest advantage is better engine protection - especially during cold starting, as well as during high revving, and high engine temperatures.

[Fazerider]

Lubricant manufacturers do themselves no favours by letting the marketing men provide the descriptions for oil. Being non-scientists they naturally have nothing to offer but hype and bullshit when hard facts and a detailed listing of the additive package would go a long way to earning trust.
However, it's pretty obvious that oil in your bike engine has a harder time than it would in Ford Ka. Aside from wet clutch requirements, the power per cc of cylinder displacement is greater than that of a Mclaren F1 and the oil is shared with the gearbox which in a car is typically filled with oil of far higher viscosity.
So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.


Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

[Simon.Pieman]

Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.

[Enceladus]

think i've got some fuchs 10w40 bike oil in mine at the moment

[Jacko]

The Wilko oil I use isn't car oil it's just motor oil of the required spec as stated in the manual.
This cannot be wrong can it?
73,000 miles and counting.

[VNA]

So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.

Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Most of what is being said here is opinion and here say, not fact.

Pretty much all we have to go on are specs. 

I think we are just going round in circles. 

OK, here's a question, does anything in the spec on the can tell you whether there are friction modifiers or not?  I don't think there is.  There may be clues like 'optimised for fuel economy' in which case you avoid like the plague.

Lets face it oil companies, as far as I can see, manufacture an oil to meet a spec.  Then they can re-brand, if they wish to suit.  They can stick a picture of a car on one tin, a bike on another, a truck on another etc.  The stuff in the car tin may or may not have fiction modifiers in it.  But a picture of a high performance bike is always a great opportunity to shove the price up. 

Also the quality of car oil and the demands on the stuff have increased considerably in the last decade.  Have a look at the specs, say for example, of some of the latest small capacity turbo charged car engines.  Note the impressive BHP and torque figures, plus it's got a turbo to contend with and a 20,000 mile service interval.

You could spend quite a bit of time figuring out oil specs, maybe contacting oil companies for the finer details (they may or may not want to be helpful) and will probably end up buying a far better oil for a much better price for your bike, and I bet it won't have a picture of a motorcycle on the tin.

Oh don't forget truck oil.  They probably have the highest specs of all road going engines, and could be just the ticket for the bike.  You'd have to buy a big drum though.

But seriously unless you really know your oil, most of what is being written here (maybe my post too?) is just hot air.

I just buy a semi synth with a picture of a bike on the front.  Expensive, and last time I looked up the spec years ago, pretty basic too.  But I haven't yet bothered to work out how to get something better for less for my bike.  Probably because the time ain't worth the tenner a year I'd save. 

[nick crisp]

So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.

Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Most of what is being said here is opinion and here say, not fact.

Pretty much all we have to go on are specs. 

I think we are just going round in circles. 

OK, here's a question, does anything in the spec on the can tell you whether there are friction modifiers or not?  I don't think there is.  There may be clues like 'optimised for fuel economy' in which case you avoid like the plague.

Lets face it oil companies, as far as I can see, manufacture an oil to meet a spec.  Then they can re-brand, if they wish to suit.  They can stick a picture of a car on one tin, a bike on another, a truck on another etc.  The stuff in the car tin may or may not have fiction modifiers in it.  But a picture of a high performance bike is always a great opportunity to shove the price up. 

Also the quality of car oil and the demands on the stuff have increased considerably in the last decade.  Have a look at the specs, say for example, of some of the latest small capacity turbo charged car engines.  Note the impressive BHP and torque figures, plus it's got a turbo to contend with and a 20,000 mile service interval.

You could spend quite a bit of time figuring out oil specs, maybe contacting oil companies for the finer details (they may or may not want to be helpful) and will probably end up buying a far better oil for a much better price for your bike, and I bet it won't have a picture of a motorcycle on the tin.

Oh don't forget truck oil.  They probably have the highest specs of all road going engines, and could be just the ticket for the bike.  You'd have to buy a big drum though.

But seriously unless you really know your oil, most of what is being written here (maybe my post too?) is just hot air.

I just buy a semi synth with a picture of a bike on the front.  Expensive, and last time I looked up the spec years ago, pretty basic too.  But I haven't yet bothered to work out how to get something better for less for my bike.  Probably because the time ain't worth the tenner a year I'd save.

Which is all why I read what I can on such subjects. Where sources disagree, ok the jury's out, you may never know. But if you get a good consensus of opinion across as many sources as you can find, then that's probably your best guide. You're absolutely right, opinions from the layman (ie most of us) aren't much use. But there is a wealth of information out there from professional sources, it'd be churlish to ignore it. I've worked in a lot of bike shops down the last 15 years or so, ok, not as a mechanic/technician, but I listen, and yes I've heard conflicting opinions about many things, but gradually you narrow it down to the things everyone agrees on. I like to think that's what we're trying to do here on this thread and on others like it. So I pay more attention to the guys who say, "this is what I did, and this was the result", rather than just "this is what I think". And if you're still not convinced, well you store it away until further information comes in and then assess it again. In this particular case, we all use oil, so it makes sense to try to find out a few facts about the stuff.

[nick crisp]

[quote author=Fazerider link=topic=8869.msg88535#msg88535 date=1374140791]
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
[/quote]
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?

[Fazerider]

[quote author=Simon.Pieman link=topic=8869.msg88591#msg88591 date=1374155359]
[quote author=Fazerider link=topic=8869.msg88535#msg88535 date=1374140791]
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
[/quote]
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?
[/quote]
True, I can't prove it wouldn't have happened anyway.
I should have kept an identical bike running on Silkolene and ridden them alternately. Remiss of me.
As it stands it is only anecdotal evidence, it was enough to convince me that saving perhaps £2 per thousand miles isn't worth the risk.

[nick crisp]

[quote author=nick crisp link=topic=8869.msg88664#msg88664 date=1374176996]
[quote author=Simon.Pieman link=topic=8869.msg88591#msg88591 date=1374155359]
[quote author=Fazerider link=topic=8869.msg88535#msg88535 date=1374140791]
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.

Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
[/quote]
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?
[/quote]
True, I can't prove it wouldn't have happened anyway.
I should have kept an identical bike running on Silkolene and ridden them alternately. Remiss of me.
As it stands it is only anecdotal evidence, it was enough to convince me that saving perhaps £2 per thousand miles isn't worth the risk.
[/quote]
Hey, no one's having a dig at you here - you might have some useful information from your experience. Did you only use this oil with one bike, or more than one? If only one, ok, it's possible the oil had something to do with the problem. If more than one, and only one bike had the problem then possibly the oil wasn't to blame on balance. Was it a bike model known to have such problems anyway? So that narrows it down a bit more. So then you think, did anyone else use this oil in a bike and have the same problem? Simple deduction process. But you'll already have filed some of this info away, so when you see a similar problem or comment in the future, that's another piece in the puzzle. By the way, I'm not grilling you here, it's just that some people seem to get very frustrated with what is after all just a discussion, in my opinion an interesting one, maybe not in your opinion. So then, you don't have to get involved; add your information to the fund and leave it to boring old gits like me to pursue it if that's what we like to do   As to spending the extra for what you know and trust, that's exactly what I do. And I don't mean to sound at all condescending here - maybe my wording could be a bit better.

[Fazerider]

Oops! Meant to stick a smiley at the end of the second line of my last post, forgot, and what was meant to be mildly humorous ended up reading like I was having a hissy fit.
I was just trying to make the point that Simon's request for examples of problems caused by car oil being responsible for bike engine failure being followed by a demand to prove it was a bit pointless. From a statistical point of view, there won't be enough data to establish a causal link even if every member of this forum contributed detailed account of every bike they owned, mileages and oil used.
A blind test with two identical bikes alternated regularly between two riders and run for say, 50,000 miles each and followed by a forensic examination would offer much more convincing evidence whether or not bike oil is just car oil with the price jacked up. "Ride" magazine used to do various long term tests, but so far as I know that isn't something they've attempted.
In the absence of scientific studies I'd tried to look at the problem from the other direction. That is, that it's obvious that the oil has a tougher environment in a bike than it does in a car. So, oil companies would hardly limit themselves to ripping off thousands of bikers on the one hand yet supply millions of car drivers with oil that is way better than it needs to be for their purposes. Therefore car and bike oils must be different.

[nick crisp]

For me , there's never been any argument that car and motorcycle oils are, and need to be, different. I'm not so cynical that I disbelieve everything the oil companies say. I also wouldn't discount claims of improved fuel consumption and increased power output totally. But as Slaninar says, those benefits may be minimal. The oil companies make vast profits as we all know, but they also stand to lose a great deal if found to be making false claims. Your way of approaching the problem is a much more practical solution from our point of view. But I never thought I'd find the subject so fascinating - must be getting old!

[Dave48]

Its difficult to separate the solid facts from all the marketing hype but in the final analysis I want to know that my oil meets the required JASO/SAE standard for the engine its being used in. The viscosity range depends on local climate eg 10W-40 in my Fazer in UK. I am told to avoid friction modifiers and detergent rich oils(as used in diesel engines to keep product of combustion particles in suspension). So now I am looking at  oils designed-yes designed-for use in motorcycles-ie high revving,high specific power output(BHP per Litre) with lubricant shared by engine,clutch & gearbox. If I saw such oil for sale in any outlet(Wilkos Asda Tescos etc) I would have no qualms buying it.
if I do 3000 miles per annum on my bike & change the oil & filter every year its not going to be a costly exercise if I look for the supplier offering the best deal for what I want. If Yamaha specify a certain standard for oil that's good enough for me. The reason for the annual change is simply that my bike doesn't get used much in the colder months & cold storage can lead to condensation & acid build up in  cold damp conditions. I am quite sure the oil would be good for the full 6000 miles use were I to ride all year round.
There have been various reports published about cars being driven for extended periods (20000 miles) between oil changes and there is a school of thought that suggests this isn't necessarily a good thing-but being a bit cynical this may just be the oil companies trying to shift more product!
I know my local Yamaha main dealer uses Motul oil because I have seen the empty 205Litre drums in their recycling area. I think if I did a massive mileage I would look to buy my oil of choice in bulk to reduce costs but its going to take me a long time to get through that much! :lol  In the last 10 years have used Silkolene ,Motul, Yamalube and Morris Lubricants-all 10W-40 Semi synthetic in my bikes. The car gets whatever the garage uses at annual oil change-regardless of mileage as I do less than 10000miles per annum with a lot of short journeys-top up if required is with Halfords own brand or similar. The only fully synthetic oil I use is for the leaf blower/vac & strimmer as stipulated by their manufacturers so the 1951 Cycclemaster also benefits from this oil-with minimum smoke & leaned out ratio (33:1 instead of 25:1).
Don't think I would try anything in the bikes that I wasn't sure about(or as sure as any of us can be in this age of information (bullshit?) overload but Im just a cynical old git!

[Slaninar]

In the absence of scientific studies I'd tried to look at the problem from the other direction. That is, that it's obvious that the oil has a tougher environment in a bike than it does in a car. So, oil companies would hardly limit themselves to ripping off thousands of bikers on the one hand yet supply millions of car drivers with oil that is way better than it needs to be for their purposes. Therefore car and bike oils must be different.

I agree with most of what you've said in this topic. I came to the local mechanic (a good one) with the brilliant idea:

"Why wouldn't I use non-motorcycle specific oil? It says API SG on the can, just like Yamaha recommended."

He told me that "car" oil is good enough for low revving, low power bikes, but not to put it in the Fazer. Then I talked to 2 guys who work with oil companies (one was a chemist, the other just plant engineer). Took it all with a grain of salt, but all those people have recommended motorcycle oil. They also agreed that  mineral oil is not very good. They also said that although full synthetic oil IS the best in terms of protecting the engine, best thing for a fazer is a semi-synth (in terms of money-value).

As far as brands go, the oil guy that was a chemist works for Fuchs (Silkolene) recommended Silkolene, but he said Motul was just as good. The other, non-chemist guy recommended Motul as number one. Both said they don't have enough info on US brands (Bel Ray, Bardahl, Amsoil).  The mechanics I talk to swear by Repsol.


I've used full synth oil in old 1997 (80s tech) Suzuki GN 125. In Fazer as well. Engines look like brand new from the inside - no grime, no problems. I stick with it. Costs 10e more per change for the fazer.

One more thing. Fazer uses 2.7 litres per oil change, while full oil capacity on stripping the engine is about 3.4 litres. Which means you always have around half a litre of old oil diluted in the engine. One more reason to use good, long lasting synthetic oil IMO.

[nick crisp]

Yes, Motul is the Yamaha recommended oil. They're not going to recommend anything that's not good for your bike. When I was younger, I was pretty lazy about oil changes (we're talking 20-odd years ago, so I suppose I'm not that old - just feel it!). This includes in my old 750 Turbo (some of you may have gathered by now I have fond memories of that bike!), and turbos do put a very high strain on oils - they actually glow red hot. There was talk at the time that if you just shut off a turbo engine immediately after hard use, the oil would crystallise in the compressor bearing and knacker it. Don't know how true that is, but I always used to think that because my rides always finished with a slower bit at the end (residential streets going home etc), that's why I never had that problem. Nowadays I wonder if that isn't so much bullshit. But oils have come a long way since then, and even then I had no oil related problems.

[Grahamm]

Yes, Motul is the Yamaha recommended oil. They're not going to recommend anything that's not good for your bike.

The cynic in me says they're more likely to recommend something which involves a lucrative deal with an oil supplier who'll give them a kick-back for plugging their product...

[nick crisp]

Yeah , well, that's pretty much a given I'd say, but even so....

[Slaninar]

The cynic in me says they're more likely to recommend something which involves a lucrative deal with an oil supplier who'll give them a kick-back for plugging their product...

Grahamm, did you just say "Yamalube"?