Olympic Conclusions

[richfzs]

Sounds like something you hear from a woman. You played football?

Thanks, I like to think I'm in touch with my feminine side  :rollin

No, I haven't played football. And nor would I, its far too dangerous. Not the game itself, but the w@nkers who play and think, because their role models get away with it, that they can get away with abusing the ref, and doing hatchet jobs on opposing players because they think they'll get away with it. Just one example, son of a friend of mine was 2 weeks from joining the army, and took part in a charity tournament - his legs were chopped out in a hideous foul, wrecked his achilles tendon, and delayed his army career by 6 months. The opposing player? Got off scot free, not even a yellow card - and he was playing on the fire service team, somebody supposedly a decent member of the community, but on the football field, he's a thug. Any why is he a thug? Because his role models are, they get way with it, no respect for the referee.

I'd be willing to boot anyone anyone in the shin with their shinnies on so we can gauge their reaction

Nobody is saying it doesn't hurt, when you do get a boot in the shin (well I'm not, anyway), its the way they whinge about it, like no other sport does. But my original point, was that they play act when they haven't been touched. Cheating, in effect - and we're back to abysmal role models.

[Slaninar]

Thanks, I like to think I'm in touch with my feminine side  :rollin

No, I haven't played football. And nor would I, its far too dangerous. Not the game itself, but the w@nkers who play and think, because their role models get away with it, that they can get away with abusing the ref, and doing hatchet jobs on opposing players because they think they'll get away with it.


Just one example, son of a friend of mine was 2 weeks from joining the army, and took part in a charity tournament - his legs were chopped out in a hideous foul, wrecked his achilles tendon, and delayed his army career by 6 months. The opposing player? Got off scot free, not even a yellow card - and he was playing on the fire service team, somebody supposedly a decent member of the community, but on the football field, he's a thug. Any why is he a thug? Because his role models are, they get way with it, no respect for the referee.

Shit happens. If you know how to take care of yourself, and if opponents aren't complete idiots, you should be fine 90% of the time. There is an unspoken agreement on what you can and can't do. You respect defenders, they respect you.

If that opposing player's start was out of place, someone should have taken care of him on first opportunity.

Nobody is saying it doesn't hurt, when you do get a boot in the shin (well I'm not, anyway), its the way they whinge about it, like no other sport does. But my original point, was that they play act when they haven't been touched. Cheating, in effect - and we're back to abysmal role models.

It's all a part of the game. You put pressure on opponents, on the ref. Try to make the best of it. While I hate fouls that deliberately injure other players (except when in retribution!), everything else is a part of the game. I truly respect players that can foul you without the ref seeing it. Just as I respect those that make it look like you've fouled them, when you haven't. It's almost the same skill as dribbling.

Once as kid in a local league game i got very frustrated. Got fouled and tackled a lot.  After sprinting past two guys pulling my shirt and shorts I got tackled from behind by the third guy. Managed to skip most of it, got some sloppy shot at goal, keeper bounced it into corner. I was furious with the ref! "What do I have to do to get a foul here?!?" The ref calmly replied: "fall down." 

Defenders who foul and tackle hard try to scare you and change your style of play. It's a challenge. Good teams cope with that no problems.

One exception is fixed games - when referees or certain players know what the result should be in the end. That is idiotic and quite common these days. Often catch myself trying to figure if they're playing for real in the first half when watching our local championship... or Italians.

[richfzs]

Thanks, think you've just illustrated why I have no time for football quite nicely.

[Rusty]

[size=1em]I disagree celebrating our multi-cultural society is about bring all together, it should be about opening up cultures, learning about each other and coming together.  [/size]

[size=1em] [/size]

[size=1em]But instead it appears to be about the importing of cultures while making our own subservient to them. There isn't anything to celebrate in that - it's idiotic. Again there was no mandate for this, it is purely enforced social engineering, and those that are marginalised are those who are 'impolite' enough to mention it.[/size]

As for being British, no thank-you, I'm looking forward to our referendum in 2014.  I'm Scottish first, European second, and British last, and well done to those Scottish and Welsh athletes who refused to sing God Save the Queen!

I was going to point that out when you mentioned your Muslim friend wanting to be 'Scottish' (not British). The above comment typifies exactly the situation we're in. Had I stated that I am English first and not British, then within seconds the familiar EDL/BNP slurs would be aired. I too look forward to your referendum, I hope it goes well for you. I also look forward to our own in/out EU referendum, because I'm English and I wish to governed only by an English democracy.

Finally, while it's fair to say that I'm not the least inclined to feel Royalist, I'd much rather stand for the queen than bow to mecca. Such is my birthright, and just as you value your Scots heritage and independence I have equal right to value mine. Therefore I do take umbridge when some folk try to give it away in an attempt to prove their right on credentials.

[VNA]

But instead it appears to be about the importing of cultures while making our own subservient to them.

Culture evolves.  Multi-culturism is about bring people together.  I've been to a number of community multicultural events  and great fun they were too.  As for us and them, I don't get that, I'm not interested, I don't care about colour, race or religion, there is only one race and that's the human race.

I was going to point that out when you mentioned your Muslim friend wanting to be 'Scottish' (not British). The above comment typifies exactly the situation we're in.

Recent pols have shown that Scottish Asians are more Scottish than white ethnic Scots.  The Scottish National Party today takes the lion's share of the Asian vote.

Had I stated that I am English first and not British, then within seconds the familiar EDL/BNP slurs would be aired.

You've lost me there!  Talking of sport, and umm, motorcycles, one great man did much for his country.  Carl Fogarty.  When he won a race, he always picked up the St Georges flag, and good on him. 

I too look forward to your referendum, I hope it goes well for you.

Cheers.  Fingers crossed.

I also look forward to our own in/out EU referendum, because I'm English and I wish to governed only by an English democracy.

How do you mean?  Right now England can't have an in/out EU referendum.  Even if Scotland leaves the union, England still can't have such a referendum.  And nor can England govern itself.  Too often the English think they are Britain, they are not.

Finally, while it's fair to say that I'm not the least inclined to feel Royalist, I'd much rather stand for the queen than bow to mecca.

Again, what the foc are you on about?  You are starting to sound just a little weird. 

Therefore I do take umbridge when some folk try to give it away in an attempt to prove their right on credentials.

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the Queen

Never have sung it, never will.

[VNA]

Dunno why that last bit came out so small, and of course there's no darn edit button.

But here it is;

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,and like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the Queen

[Rusty]

I can see the objection, but I'm a land of hope and glory man myself. Or perhaps Elgar.

  Right now England can't have an in/out EU referendum.  Even if Scotland leaves the union, England still can't have such a referendum.  And nor can England govern itself. 

Who says? Who can deny us a referendum? If the populace demand one then it is their right to have one. England has governed itself for a thousand years why should it appear to you that this is no longer possible? How odd. So what your saying here is that Scotland being the most parochial nation of the union can suddenly govern itself quite happily, having had no recent experience and lacking the finance to support itself, but England can't?

Too often the English think they are Britain, they are not.

It's usually the left that use the term British in such an incorrect manner. It's part of that all inclusivity that they preach which is then snubbed by those it is meant to appease. Personally I'd ditch the term. We don't even have a tick box for English on our forms any more, they insist on a box marked British. :rolleyes

Again, what the foc are you on about?  You are starting to sound just a little weird.

It's quite simple. There appears to be a trend amongst current politicians and left wing trendies to show how cosmopolitan they are by destroying or giving away much of our heritage. My view is that they can give away as much as they like of that which belongs to them, but nothing at all of what belongs to others, as it isn't theirs to give. What's complicated or weird about that?


By the way this software is shite I'm struggling to separate the text.

[Rusty]

I can see the objection, but I'm a land of hope and glory man myself. Or perhaps Elgar

That should of course read or perhaps 'Holst'. Can't edit posts.

[VNA]

I think this going a bit off topic, but;

Scotland can call a consultative referendum on almost anything it wants.  That's becuase we have a government.  We have the strange situation of having a majority nationalist government in a minority or coalition parliament.  The impossible has just become possible.

[size=1em]Who says? Who can deny us a referendum?[/size]

You have to have a government before you can call a referendum on England being within the EU.  England does not have it's own parliament.  England does not have a government.

In any case leaving the EU won't happen, UK, Scotland or a future England.  It's pretty much economic suicide.  It sounds good, plays to the audience well, may get you votes, but those politicians calling for in/out referendum, well most of em will shit their pants if there wish was granted.

It's usually the left that use the term British in such an incorrect manner.

Certainly Rusty could do with figuring out the difference between England, English, Britain and British.

There appears to be a trend amongst current politicians and left wing trendies to show how cosmopolitan they are by destroying or giving away much of our heritage. My view is that they can give away as much as they like of that which belongs to them, but nothing at all of what belongs to others, as it isn't theirs to give. What's complicated or weird about that?

Other than it's meaningless sound bite drivel, nothing.

[Rusty]

Congratulations I see you've reached the Ad Hominem stage.  :rolleyes


You may hold the odd personal notion that England has no government/Parliament but that doesn't make it so. Do we live in a democracy or no? As for the old chestnut about economic suicide. We currently export more elsewhere than we do to Europe, it's simply a matter of strengthening those markets.


On the second point Rusty knows this - The difference between English and British, is that England and the English are the core. 'British' or 'Britain' refers to the whole i.e. inclusion of the subsidised bits tacked on.


And finally, speaking of sound bite drivel. (Oh How flippantly a person's views are dismissed when they don't concur) especially by one who recently accused the Americans of dangerous levels of patriotism possessed of a 'With us or agin us' mentality. That was the phrase wasn't it?  As I'm clearly not with you I suppose that last comment was to only be expected. Pot kettle anyone?


I'll end on Slaninars honest comment. Being an immigrant (from danger) himself he reminds us that "most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money". Well said Slaninar, had I said that even though it were true I would have been castigated by the very same people who advocate enforced multiculturalism. Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.


Off topic indeed, back to the Olympics then eh.

[CRH]

....Well said rusty!!.....

[Slaninar]

I'll end on Slaninars honest comment. Being an immigrant (from danger) himself he reminds us that "most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money". Well said Slaninar, had I said that even though it were true I would have been castigated by the very same people who advocate enforced multiculturalism. Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.

I'm not an immigrant. Not myself. Wouldn't want to be unless really forced. My city has been full of refugies from other republics since 1992. Completely changed the look of it, the culture (for a more savage one IMO). And these are the same nation people, not some foreigners - same nation, but from rural, or mountainous parts. Bad manners, smuggling etc. So I completely understand how a UK born man could feel about immigrants. They come because they have to, that is OK, but you don't have to like them.

Having said all this, once you realise they are DIFFERENT, not better or worse, you can live with it. All the things have both good and bad sides, try to make the most of it.

[Rusty]

While I don't agree that immigrants come because they have to, I totally understand Slaninar.

My position is not one of anti-immigration, racism, or bigotry which might easily be attributed to my comments. I look at this purely from a point of genuine concern. I have seen my home town totally transformed due to mass immigration over a very short period, and I grow weary of the political correctness that tells me that I must celebrate the fact.The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses. As you say I don't have to like it, but thanks to our politicians I do have to live it.

No more from me on this subject, emotive topics often end badly.

[Slaninar]

Thanks, think you've just illustrated why I have no time for football quite nicely.

No offence meant to your mahood or anything like that, man. Just from what you wrote I thought you were talking about something you don't really understand. Like you confirmed now. That's cool. No need to like every sport. My point was pro footballers are tough men and very skillfull. No matter how well they're paid when they reach the top (and that's just 1%), it takes a lot and it's not for everyone. Reaction to your and Graham's posts. The amount of money they get, whether it's "worth" it is irrelevant - they are good sportsmen.

[size=1em]While I don't agree that immigrants come because they have to, I totally understand Slaninar.[/size]

[size=1em]My position is not one of anti-immigration, racism, or bigotry which might easily be attributed to my comments. I look at this purely from a point of genuine concern. I have seen my home town totally transformed due to mass immigration over a very short period, and I grow weary of the political correctness that tells me that I must celebrate the fact.The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses. As you say I don't have to like it, but thanks to our politicians I do have to live it.[/size]

I 100% understand anti-immigration, even racism. While we here don't have blacks, there are chineese and gypsies. 90% of gypsies will steall your wallet if they have an opportunity. It is experience. My friend lives in a part of town full of gypsies and can't leave anything in the yard. They steal everything. He doesn't hate them for being gypsies, but when he sees a gypsie, he is almost certain he should keep his wallet close. The only thing that differs him from stupid nazi idiots is that, when he meets a MAN, he doesn't care for the nationality/coloru/religion - he judges that particular person by his human qualities. But for people just crossing the street, public places etc, he is as gipsy hating as they come.

[VNA]

You may hold the odd personal notion that England has no government/Parliament but that doesn't make it so. Do we live in a democracy or no?

It's not a personal notion, it's a fact.  For England to hold an in/out referendum on the EU, it would first have to have a referendum on English Independance.  The UK could hold an in/out referendum, but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could try and stop it, though it's far from clear if they could actually do anything about it.  Again I think you are confused, England is not Britain or the UK.

As for the old chestnut about economic suicide. We currently export more elsewhere than we do to Europe, it's simply a matter of strengthening those markets.

Perhaps, but Europe is our single biggest market, we have unrestricted access and influence over how it operates.  A countries immediate trading partners are always it's most important economic partners.  While successive UK governments have sold off and run down our industry, we are now waking up to the importance of actually making stuff.  A big slice of our industry is now foreign companies who came to the UK to access the EU single market, they came on the understanding that they would always have unrestricted access to the biggest single market in the world. 



The hope of those wanting out, is that we will maintain full access, but the reality is that if we do there will be no guarantees and we will have no influence over any decision making within the EU.  It's already making some of our biggest manufacturers nervous, and don't forget that these same firms are the ones selling round the globe from the UK.  If they ain't happy, if they don't see a steady pound and long term guaranteed access to the EU they'll get on the ferry to the EU and leave.    Trust me, we ain't gonna leave the EU. 

When David Cameron played his veto card recently, he was basically playing to a domestic audience, problem was he pissed off his EU partners and they called his bluff, he won't make that same mistake twice.

most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money

Well yeah, most immigrants come from the EU.  Was the Empire built to learn about other cultures, or was it about exploitation and making money?

Oh How flippantly a person's views are dismissed when they don't concur

I didn't dismiss them, I was pointing out that there was nothing to comment on.  No substance.  Politicians, for example, love that sort of language, it sounds if they are saying something when in fact they have said nothing. 

Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.

I didn't accuse you of BNP or EDL sympathies.  There has been quite a bit of support for right wing extremists and fascists recently on this forum, ie BNP, EDL etc, that's what I was referring to.

The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses.

That's down to economic miss management.  We had the world's worst banker - Sir Fred the Shred, who was best friends with the worst chancellor in British history - Gordon Brown.  We have a country still obsessed with privatisation, driving down wages terms and conditions, raising taxes for the poor and allowing the rich to pay nothing. 



Immigrants and minorities always make a handy scapegoat, but immigrants and minorities are not to blame for the current economic mess that we have in the UK. 

As for multicultural success, just look at team GB, and what an astounding success it was.  I hope Wee Eck has taken note and is somehow finding real funding for Team Scotland for the Commonwealth Games in 2014. Bring on the real games, bring on Glasgow 2014!

[Rusty]

Point 1:

The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado. Call it Britain, call it the UK ( a laughable misnomer if ever there was one) call it whatever you like but the people of these islands who are subject of the same head of state are entitled to a referendum on their future. There need be no prior declaration of independence or anything like it, it is for the subjects of the queen who are inhabitants of these islands decide. Nowhere in English law does it require the permission of others to decide our fate.

As I mentioned earlier I genuinely do hope Scotland gains independence, although anyone with an abacus might then see problems on the horizon. I predict that Scottish youth will soon after be obliged to pay for their own education, and the small population of Scotland will be expected to pay more taxes to support it's own health and welfare costs. The next step will be a cap in hand to the EU, followed after rebuttal, by inviting Chinese investment or perhaps the offer of a naval base for big cash.

On the question of substance:

There is no substance in "There are no races just the human race" type statements. It's akin to saying there are no political boundaries, only geographical ones - yet there they are and so often under dispute. I was lucky enough to be born under English common law which bestows certain inalienable rights in perpetuity. One such right is that I, and only I, can relinquish them. A person cannot give them away on my behalf i.e. give away what is not his to give. That isn't a sound bite it is fact under English common law. Look it up, it's in the Magna Carta.

On Immigration.

You state that 'Most immigrants come from the EU.' Please state your sources for this information. I know it to be untrue. It is a deliberately misleading ploy to deflect the truth of the scale of None EU immigrants. I put it to you that the majority of immigrants are Asian and somali African.

On crumbling infrastructure.

Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery. I care not who what or when, (for now) but I do care that it exists, and it must be addressed.  The immigrants are not a handy scapegoat, for the most part they are ballast.  You commented that the Empire had exploited their lands and alluded that they are in turn doing the same to us. Newsflash! Queen Victoria is dead. We can't be expected to pay the price.

[Slaninar]

[size=1em]Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery. I care not who what or when, (for now) but I do care that it exists, and it must be addressed.  The immigrants are not a handy scapegoat, for the most part they are ballast.  You commented that the Empire had exploited their lands and alluded that they are in turn doing the same to us. Newsflash! Queen Victoria is dead. We can't be expected to pay the price. [/size]

Can't agree. My country, for one, was devastated by economic embargo (sanctions) during the 90s. Then it was bombed. Then it was given credits at high interest rate which I knew we can't repay. It is being done all over the world. Rich are getting richer, buying practically whole countries for pieces of paper, backing it up with military supremacy. Look at Greece. Germans offered to BUY a whole island in order to repay Greece's debt.

And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.

However, this is not fault of any "people", or nation. It's all politicians and big corporations. They are above all that. The only reason people in the "west" are left to live somehow in high standard i so that kids of those rich guys could grow in a more-less normal, healthy society. Why would anyone pay 10$ per hour, when Chinese have wits, manpower and ability to do it for 1$ per hour if even that much. For a short period of some 50sh years, while there was a present threat of communism taking over private capital, ordinary working class were allowed to live lika some sort of middle class. It is all diminishing now, no reason to keep them happy and well. Hope I'm wrong, but in a decade or two, it will all come to poor working class and a few rich guys - globaly. Middle class consisting of judges, police and the army to keep it all at nice and smooth.

[VNA]

The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado.

As I've pointed out, it is not going to happen.
Oh, English law is not applicable in Scotland.  And maybe just maybe you have grasped that England can't hold an in/out EU referendum?

As I mentioned earlier I genuinely do hope Scotland gains independence, although anyone with an abacus might then see problems on the horizon. I predict that Scottish youth will soon after be obliged to pay for their own education, and the small population of Scotland will be expected to pay more taxes to support it's own health and welfare costs. The next step will be a cap in hand to the EU, followed after rebuttal, by inviting Chinese investment or perhaps the offer of a naval base for big cash.

Whatever.

Firstly it's not about some mad rose tinted nationalism, it's about politics.  Scotland once again has a UK government it did not vote for.  We had 17 years years of Tory rule not that long ago that we did not vote for, and here we are again.
Economically, currently Scotland raises more in taxes for the exchequer than it receives back as the budget granted to it by the UK.  You won't find any independent economic experts that will state that Scottish independence is not viable.

There is no substance in "There are no races just the human race" type statements. It's akin to saying there are no political boundaries, only geographical ones - yet there they are and so often under dispute. I was lucky enough to be born under English common law which bestows certain inalienable rights in perpetuity. One such right is that I, and only I, can relinquish them. A person cannot give them away on my behalf i.e. give away what is not his to give. That isn't a sound bite it is fact under English common law. Look it up, it's in the Magna Carta.

I still don't know what you are on about.  What is it that you think 'they' are trying to take away from you, though you claim, whatever it is, they can't take it away anyway.  How very interesting!

You state that 'Most immigrants come from the EU.' Please state your sources for this information. I know it to be untrue. It is a deliberately misleading ploy to deflect the truth of the scale of None EU immigrants. I put it to you that the majority of immigrants are Asian and somali African.

OK, I'm behind the times.  Last year figures show Indians as the biggest number coming to the UK, they accounted for 12% of all immigrants.    The surge from the EU in recent years has been reversed with more leaving than coming in.

Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery.

Well yeah.  It wasn't difficult to see it coming.  Brown's miracle economy was no miracle, it was built on rising asset prices and credit.  Meanwhile you can be sure that our rich press barons will keep focusing on immigration and benefits scroungers etc etc.  Anything to keep people from thinking about how we are really getting screwed. 

Commonwealth games anyone?

[VNA]

And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.

Perhaps that's becuase too many people think that's what democracy is.  A vote every few years.

[Slaninar]

And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.

Perhaps that's becuase too many people think that's what democracy is.  A vote every few years.

It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy. Tell me how I can stop a corrupt government? Find evidence, proove it in court, organize enough people to protest (and get arrested probably)?