Phil Raises a valid point...yes there were greedy Scots 'Landowners' also involved in the Highland clearances and greedy Scots 'Industrialists' also. However their interests were in doing business with and for the English. An England intent on looking after Scottish interests would not be needing a 'Hammer of the Scots' or dodgy Dutch imports either. Scarily I am near to agreeing with VNA that this is a question of democracy and self determination. I have no vested interest (I live in England) however I think it only right that if Scotland wishes Independence that it should be put to the vote and English scaremongering aside the people of Scotland should decide. I am fascinated why people get so steamed up about it...particularly the English...do you think England 'Owns' Scotland or something or shit scared that in one's heart of hearts one realises that a UK without Scotland is a much poorer one south of the border?
If as we are led to believe Scotland is the scurvy knave of the Union which costs English tax payers dear....get rid of it ....see how much better off you are.
And in the final summation were it not for the Panama canal and Scots punching well above their weight there....There wouldn't have been a Union.
The Frying Scotsman
(20-03-12, 03:06 PM)BIG MAC link Wrote: do you think England 'Owns' Scotland or something or shit scared that in one's heart of hearts one realises that a UK without Scotland is a much poorer one south of the border?
In a word ...No. I think Scotland enriches Britain massively. I'll be sorry to see you all leave.
No Probs Phil we will simply start www.foc-u.co.scot
:pokefun
We will give all the old bollix - but in Doric!
And as for life as usual, little will change...I don't think they will close the borders anytime soon ASDA still needs to ship those pies and Lidl garden implements never to be used as that would involve excercise and a mid June thaw
The Frying Scotsman
(20-03-12, 04:04 PM)BIG MAC link Wrote: No Probs Phil we will simply start www.foc-u.co.scot
:pokefun
We will give all the old bollix - but in Doric!
And as for life as usual, little will change...I don't think they will close the borders anytime soon ASDA still needs to ship those pies and Lidl garden implements never to be used as that would involve excercise and a mid June thaw
Sadly and ironically, I think you'll eventually become part of federal europe. When you've had enough of being bullied by Brussells and find you miss being bullied by us instead, you'll be back.
Nah we may become part of Europe but they can keep their Euro...we might let the English use our poond though even although for years the uninitiated have claimed 'It's not leegil tendah moite' as you will all know the English Banknote is now a promisory note excatly the same as a Scottish one. So we willnae be having any of yur monopoly munny up here......
The Frying Scotsman
Quote:In a word ...No. I think Scotland enriches Britain massively. I'll be sorry to see you all leave.
Time for a foc-u group hug?
We have to wait and see what happens. The likely date for the referendum is some time autumn 2014. A lot can happen in that time. And of course we need to know how David Cameron and chums see devolution evolving if Scotland decides to stay in the union. And vague promises and suggestions won't do.
And again I agree with Big Mac, not a lot will change. If we go Independent we'll all wake up and wonder what the fuss was about. However in the longer term we'll both start to see changes and real noticeable differences.
Here's a thought, if a Tory government increases the possibility of an Independent Scotland, then at the same time, a Tory government may make it so much more difficult for Scotland, if and when, she chooses to go. We already seen a lot of nasty childishness from English Tories.
But if we can have an amicable separation, and if, and that is if, Scotland makes a success of it, then I have a feeling that will have a beneficial political and economic knock on effect for England. If we make a hash of it (and nasty scum bag Tories could play their role here) it's gonna hit the former UK as a whole.
Quote:Nah we may become part of Europe but they can keep their Euro...
Being part of Europe is inevitable. The pound is preferable today, but it might be the Euro tomorrow. Europe has a lot of lessons to learn. And if Europe is going to continue it's neoliberal capitalist love affair, then Scottish economic experts and politicians better make sure their rose tinted specs have been well and truly binned, as Scotland will have to fight for concession after concession and in completely the opposite direction from which England is doing so.
What gets me is the practicality of separation (if that is the outcome). Although Scotland has quite a lot of independence today (e.g. Legal systems, a lot of government), there are things that are not separate that will be costly, and largely ineffective to separate that will leave a messy situation.
Examples are:
Border control is the obvious one - with different Governments it will become an issue.
Armed forces,
air traffic control,
utilities and infrastructure (national rail? The separation committee would draw lots to see who gets encumbered!),
Sea boundaries,
international territory boundaries,
all the organisations across the world that will need to change their systems to recognise a new country.
Border control...we have a welcome to Scotland sign...our welfare state will put up another sign which says 'I wouldn't bother' in a number of non English languages.
No need for armed forces we will emulate the national guard / gendarmerie. If someone invades us for our Irn Bru we will set big Maggie from Easterhoose on them.
Air traffic control...'Money in' - 'Mugs out' simples...
Rail is largely privatised...Eurostar will simply run all the way up and we will likely pay England rent.
Scotland is already pretty much 'power independent' and grid useage tends to be propped up by France overnight...hey we can run an extension lead over to Norway
Sea Boundaries..if its got oil under ours....if its got jobbies and three eyed fish under....yours
International territory boundaries remain..we just join the dots on the route of Hadrians wall
International organisations...dunno we would be too interested... NATO is an anagram of NO TA ...nah we would likely want to keep heads low and cash registers ringing...
:pokefun
The Frying Scotsman
Don't want to be inflammatory here but how many other countries do you think will want to trade with an independent Scotland that only has self interests at heart and won't help with international peace keeping?
As for Scottish independence, if the Scots want it then give it to them. The UK has said the Falklands have the right to self determination, why not Scotland?
thou shalt not kick
Most of them....the object is trade and profit...they superpowers dont give a monkeys who the money belongs too so long as they get some...My view on international peace...don't interupt....there's plenty whop want to be the World's Policeman and Scotland with a population of 5.1 million has a smaller population than Singapore whereas England Wales and NI have about the same as Italy!
The Frying Scotsman
Quote:Examples are:
Border control is the obvious one - with different Governments it will become an issue.
Armed forces,
air traffic control,
utilities and infrastructure (national rail? The separation committee would draw lots to see who gets encumbered!),
Sea boundaries,
international territory boundaries,
all the organisations across the world that will need to change their systems to recognise a new country.
There's some detail to work out, but there's no real big issues there. It's the same right across Europe.
Quote:Don't want to be inflammatory here but how many other countries do you think will want to trade with an independent Scotland that only has self interests at heart and won't help with international peace keeping?
By International Peace Keeping, do you mean Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya? Such opportunistic , unrealistic and immoral imperialist intervention projects are not things I could see Scotland being involved with in in the future. Help with UN peace keeping duties, I'm sure we would. And I'd imagine most of the world will be more than happy to to business with Scotland. They might not be so keen to do business with us in the future if they see us hesitate and lack self confidence come autumn 2014. Many countries round the globe are expecting Scottish Independence. They won't understand if we don't grasp that opportunity.
Fair do's. I honestly think it will take 15-20 years to become completely independent in which time concessions will likely be made to simplify the process. I've heard the reason the EU dictates so much in Britain is that ministers can't be bothered/have the time/money to legislate our own laws that the EU have similar laws for. Would be interesting to see if Scotland went down this route and just swapped UK for the EU.
thou shalt not kick
Quote:Border control...we have a welcome to Scotland sign...our welfare state will put up another sign which says 'I wouldn't bother' in a number of non English languages.
Scotland has a proud tradition of welcoming immigrants and treating them fairly. I don't see that changing. Westminster control of Scottish asylum issues was one of a number of issues that seriously damaged Jack McCronic and the last Labour administration in Scotland.
Quote:Scotland is already pretty much 'power independent' and grid useage tends to be propped up by France overnight...hey we can run an extension lead over to Norway
Scotland is energy rich, not just in minerals but has a massive and growing electrical over capacity. England is short of generation, it's an export market for us.
(20-03-12, 06:56 PM)VNA link Wrote: Scotland is energy rich, not just in minerals but has a massive and growing electrical over capacity. England is short of generation, it's an export market for us.
Would you take free BBC programming in exchange? :lol
thou shalt not kick
As an Englishman living in Scotland I really couldn't give a toss which way Scotland goes.
Overlords and vested interests are the same everywhere, and borders and proud claims of nationality are sooo 19th century.
Just wonder what would have happened if Scotland was independent when Alex was banging on a few years back, how England was holding Scotland back, and he wanted to follow the Celtic tiger economies of Ireland and Iceland.
If Scotland does split, I Definitely think they need to sort their own currency out.
Don't want Scotland becoming to the pound, what Greece is to the Euro.
Would you take free BBC programming in exchange? [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img]
Umm let me think about that..................err...................No. :rolleyes
Quote:As an Englishman living in Scotland I really couldn't give a toss which way Scotland goes.
But you have a say. You are part of 'the people of Scotland'.
Quote:If Scotland does split, I Definitely think they need to sort their own currency out.
I'm no expert on currency, but I can't help but think that using an established currency makes the transition to Independence easy. And lets face it if we end of with some form of 'devo max' or fiscal autonomy within the UK then the pound it will be. So does it really make that much difference if it's the pound for independence?
Quote:Don't want Scotland becoming to the pound, what Greece is to the Euro.
I think it's more likely to be the opposite problem. Nor does it look that we would have the issues that led Greece into a mess. If we had our own currency it could easily become to strong. Frankly - pound first choice - but Euro will do if England wants to be difficult. And frankly I think it's probably desirable for England to have Scotland in the pound.
Quote:But you have a say. You are part of 'the people of Scotland'.
I haven't had a vote for about 8 years 
the question should be....just what will the miltant scots moan aboot when they do get independance.? :rolleyes
tbh to my mind your constant diatribe remind me of woolfy in citizen smith....make a life out of protesting ...what would yer life be like if ye had noothing ta moan aboot ! :eek
I should imagine we would moan about the speed of service from our truculent neighbours.
VNA has picked up on my point re immigration which while light hearted does make the point that I don't think a Scottish Welfare state would be as open for abuse as the current UK one (and that includes Scottish Nationals) There are many Eastern Europeans settled happily in Scotland and paying their way. I am not so sure we would be as supportive of policies which allow 4 unemployed generations of a family to exist on the back of the state, this as much as anything is to do with the latent Scottish work ethic I guess.
It occurs to me that a Scotland able to invest its own wealth in itself would almost inevitably start to invest in England and England in turn would be hungry for that investment...consequently this becomes an issue of balance of power and how ridiculously skewed it is at the moment.
There was mention of 'an English Parliament'...once the Scots leave you may find other parties follow suit leaving an English Parliament behind. Maybe then that English Parliament would concentrate on looking after the English....it's a crazy idea..but it may work
The Frying Scotsman
(21-03-12, 09:55 AM)BIG MAC link Wrote:There was mention of 'an English Parliament'...once the Scots leave you may find other parties follow suit leaving an English Parliament behind. Maybe then that English Parliament would concentrate on looking after the English....it's a crazy idea..but it may work
I think this is the main problem, British governance is seen as English oppression. Being as it is there's no way people who spend most of their time in London can understand the needs of people north of the Watford gap, let alone another country, and it's safe to say lots of people lose out under the current arrangements due. The current order of importance seems to be London>Europe>Everybody else in the UK.
thou shalt not kick
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