Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years. This is just like old times! :lol
As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can.
When I first moved here a typical bike synthetic oil was three times the price of the same oil in the UK. It was also twice the price of an auto synthetic over here. I was aware that loads of US FZ1 forum members used auto oil in their bikes (typically Rotella-T) and so I researched online to find out more and to determine which European (ACEA) oil specs matched the API ratings.
I settled on Carrefour supermarket own brand diesel synthetic and have used that for over a decade now. It used to come out of the Mobil facility in Rouen. Latterly it's been suggested that it's an Elf or Total product which suggests that the supermarkets bulk buy from whichever major refinery gives them the best deal. Friends here have used the same oil in a range of bikes and none have had any clutch issues. I learned this morning that the Spanish Africa Twin community love the Carrefour 5w/50 stuff, too. Nowadays it's sold as 'Essence & Diesel' meaning that they've stopped packaging it separately for petrol or diesel motors.
The stuff I have in the Fazer right now is actually 5w/50 and rated ACEA standard A3/B3/B4, and API SL/CF. A word of caution.
If you decide to investigate using auto oil, too, don't confuse ACEA C-ratings with API C(Commercial) ratings. They don't mean the same thing.
The running-in article is a new one on me and made interesting reading. I've always subscribed to the idea of breaking in a motor fairly briskly, if you get my drift. My Fazer was an ex-demo bike so would have had numerous heat cycles and some fairly regular excursions beyond 6k rpm before I got hold of it. It runs beautifully. 
The info from Castrol on the use of synthetic oil too early in the life of an engine was the first I've seen to support the 'not before 10k miles' line. Not because it's too slippery (which would be bollocks  ) but because of the unknown chemistry factors somehow at play.
Super unleaded? Super stuff. But not in my Fazer ...
[quote author=Falcon 269 link=topic=23009.msg265634#msg265634
Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc.
[/quote]
10ķ miles? My bike is 10 years old and only hit that last month ?
Best go get some fully synth now that it's worn in haha
Quote:Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years. This is just like old times! :lol
Last time we did an oil thread it went on for endless pages and caused a few headaches. :wall
Quote:As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can.
Not quite what I was saying. I think the fear is it can meet the API spec (which is pretty basic in the case of the old thou) but wreck the clutch cos it has a friction modifier in it. So that’s why, being lazy, or playing safe, I choose an oil with a picture of a motorcycle on it. Or if you wish to be a little more scientific about it, you look for a JASO spec ie JASO MA2 rather than just a picture of a motorcycle :lol
JASO MA2 means - This specification was introduced in 2006 for modern motorcycle engines. As well as being a higher standard of oil the JASO-MA2 approval means the oil is suitable for use in bikes with catalytic converts in the exhaust system. JASO-MA oils don’t contain friction modifiers.
Yamaha specifies API SE I think.
In my garage I have found the following;
Silkoline super 4 – API SF,SG and SH JASO MA2 10/40
Silolene comp 4 – API SL JASO MA2 10/40
Motul 5100 4T - API SG,SH,SJ,SL,SM JASO MA2 JASO T903 10/40
Castrol Edge 5130 – VW 504 00/507 00 5/30
Quantum Platinum – VW 502/00 5/40
I think the problem is the oil manufactures are a bit vague as to which oils they use friction modifiers in and which they do not. And yup it pays em to be vague, as they can them sell us the same oil, or a cheaper lower grade oil for a higher price. Good for them and good for the motorcycle retailers but we get ripped off.
A lot of what get said about this grade and that grade of oil, what has got slip agents added and what has not, it can just becomes a talking point and can stop you really making up your mind about what way to go oil wise, If the extra few quid a year that would be spent on on bike specific oil is that important to the owner then you really are on a tight budget.
If the cost of bike specific oil is £10 per 4 Ltrs, and given that you do maybe two changes a year at 4,000 mile intervals we are talking about £20 quid a year for oil changes, add to that the cost of one filter £6 your looking at £26 quid a year half the cost of a pair of mediocre trainers, and likely a quarter the cost of a set of friction plates for the old girl, plus no downtime and no hastle replaceing the friction plates and gasket and replacing the oil yet again.
FFS go buy 4T oil and sleep easy, and, before you say it's alright if you can afford to but the more expensive stuff, it's cheaper than the bike being off the road for perhaps a week while you order the plates and fit them, and pay public transport fares to get to work if your lucky to live on transport routes. Let alone getting a bollocking off you boss for being late. Shall I keep bigging this up or leave it at that.
Of course you can do what you like but don't squinny about slipping clutches, the price of clutch plates (And you always change the springs at the same time) and having to pay someone £40 to trailer your bike home.
I love the wind up
BUT! there is a lot of sense in it.
Happy Days :'(
Kinn ell, this is going on longer than Dallas, somebody start a "which is the best tyre" thread ffs.
I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
Yamaha specifies (in the 2005 owner's manual) API service SE, SF, SG type or higher. When you check the API website, it says that all these specs are obsolete. It also cautions that SG may not be suitable for petrol engines built after 1993. The other two are not suitable for motors built after 1979 and 1988. WTF?
What VNA said about the JASO MA1 & MA2 specs is true. JASO are the only organisation that actually test oils for clutch slippage in motorcycles. If you're really concerned about this possibility, it follows that you should only buy a JASO MA1/2 approved oil. But a lot of the bike-specific oils on sale in the UK haven't been tested by JASO, so where does that leave us?
The answer is it leaves us in a minefield. As I've said already, if you aren't sure then play safe and get something with a picture of a bike on the can. It's the sensible thing to do. But there are better oils out there and cheaper ones, too. If you feel inclined to work out which is which, you can save a few quid and put a higher quality oil into your motor.
Right, tyres ... round and black works for me.
Quote:WTF?
Indeed.
Quote:The answer is it leaves us in a minefield.
Aye :lol
Now looking at the manual for the MT10, that so far I have managed somehow to resist purchasing, it recommends;
Full synthetic
SEA grades 10w-40, 15w-50
API service SG type or higher JASO MA.
WTF indeed.
The other bit that puzzles me is, why if Yamaha are now specifying fully synth oil are we stuck with 6000 mile oil changes.
A 997 911 Porsche for example is 2 years or 20,000 miles.
Which is a thought. I might switch to fully synth and change my oil every other year, rather than every year as I do with semi-synth.
The cruncher - literally - with any oil in a motorcycle engine is the shearing of the viscosity index improvers (VII) that takes place courtesy of the gearbox.
Synthetic oils have varying amounts of these depending on the viscosity of the base oil and the desired multigrade viscosity numbers. I picked up on the bit in the article which pointed out that 10w40 synthetics have more VII molecules than say, 15w40 or 20w50 oils. Since the VIIs don't lubricate, the more of these required to produce an extended multigrade viscosity range, the less the oil is able to do the friction reduction thing. Also, with more VIIs to break down in the gearbox, the upper viscosity falls off quicker than in oils with fewer VIIs. Make sense? Anyway, as I understand it those are the main reasons why extended life synthetics can't give the same in-service mileages in bikes as in cars.
Funny you should say that Dea...... Bridgestone Batlax T30 has a very good write up much better than the earlier models I site the BT021 as an example, but some believe that the BT023 is a better tyre.
lol here we go again :lol
Wot about a nice chain maintenance thread 8)
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
WD40 explodes O-ring chains. Fact. :eek
And grey is the fastest colour Fazer thou. :lol
There is always the elephant in the room. Which grips are best.
Intentionally left blank
(08-08-17, 07:42 AM)NorthWestern link Wrote: There is always the elephant in the room. Which grips are best.
I find two hands tightly around the fucking throat helps LOL!
(07-08-17, 08:15 PM)fazerscotty link Wrote: I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
How can you not afford oil? Compared to fuel prices between changes - it mealts down to nothing. Even disregarding that - how much more does motorbike specific oil cost compared to a cheap car oil? 1/2 of a petrol tank price?
I've had bad experiences trying to skimp on oil, so never do so. Always go with motorbike, fully synth oil. It costs about the same in the long run - since it allows for a bit more miles between oil changes, but the main reason for using it is a peace of mind - if anything happens to the engine/clutch, I'm certain it's not caused by poor oil.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
My understanding is that under the same conditions, a fully synth oil will degrade slower than a semi-synth oil, which will degrade slower than a pure mineral oil. So if I want to ride around the world without a service, or just extend the service interval beyond manufacturers spec, I will use full synth. If I am not planning on extending the service period, but want to be safe just in case, I will use semi-synth, but since I normally plan to change the oil more frequently then spec, I am comfortable using whatever I have to hand.
I have never worn out a clutch and I have only ever had a clutch slippage once, which an oil change fixed.
(08-08-17, 12:35 PM)PaulSmith link Wrote: My understanding is that under the same conditions, a fully synth oil will degrade slower than a semi-synth oil, which will degrade slower than a pure mineral oil....... Yes but as Mike pointed out a couple of posts earlier it is more complicated than that, a 10w40 semi synthetic which is what most people use in their bikes will be less effective as a lubricant than a 15w40 semi synthetic oil from the get go and will also need to be replaced sooner.
(08-08-17, 10:29 AM)Slaninar link Wrote: [quote author=fazerscotty link=topic=23009.msg265730#msg265730 date=1502133326]
I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
How can you not afford oil? Compared to fuel prices between changes - it mealts down to nothing. Even disregarding that - how much more does motorbike specific oil cost compared to a cheap car oil? 1/2 of a petrol tank price?
I've had bad experiences trying to skimp on oil, so never do so. Always go with motorbike, fully synth oil. It costs about the same in the long run - since it allows for a bit more miles between oil changes, but the main reason for using it is a peace of mind - if anything happens to the engine/clutch, I'm certain it's not caused by poor oil.
[/quote]
Affordability? At that particular time in my life, money was non-existent. To the point I was using 2nd hand tyres on the GS650 I was using at the time (removed from Police BMW's with 5mm + tread left), in order to keep riding to be able to get to work savings had to be made. You obviously did not read the rest of the post, with regards to the lack of issues based on the experiences gained whilst not spending money, which I did not have at the time.
To really wind you up, I semi - retired that particular machine in 2002 with around 65,000 miles on the clock - most of which had been done with car grade 20W50. As I cannot leave things alone, I have stripped the engine to find the internals in very good condition for a machine built in the 1980's. It will be going back together as a resto project and I will be putting whatever oil I choose in it, as it is my choice, based on my experiences and my skills as a qualified aircraft piston engine engineer. (And that qualification and experience covers Radials, Rotarys, Flat 4's, 6's & 8's, Inverted in-lines, V's, Air & liquid cooled, Wankel rotarys, in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke styles!)
I will more than likely, do as the OP asked, as I can now due to being in a better place, put a poor quality oil in and use it as a "flush". It is a good idea. It is unlikely to harm anything unless it is full of the friction modifiers which have been mentioned in earlier responses. :lol
Well this has totally done my nut in :'( . I've happily been using Motul 5100 10/40 semi synth. For the sake of a few quid, for peace of mind etc would I be better off using Motul 7100 10/40 fully synth which is the same spec as the 5100 but includes API SN and is MOT 118 rather than 112( whatever any of that means). Will be due an oil change within the next few weeks.
Whizz kid sitting pretty on his two wheeled stallion.
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