Thought I'd try V power.

[nick crisp]

Thing is darrsi, I don't get the same effect from using other manufacturers higher octane fuels as I do with the V Power. I don't know why that should be; can't be just the detergents used as surely that wouldn't be on a tank-by-tank basis?

[J_Dub]

Hmmm, I wonder if the V Power cleaning agents loosened something, dirt or some such, and is causing a jet blockage? I have been advised by two separate mechanics to use the stuff, and have found that the bike benefits from it. Every time my plugs are checked, the colour is nigh on perfect, and the carbs are spotless inside. I notice the difference on a tank-by-tank basis.

I did read somewhere that ethanol is added to V Power (maybe other fuels too?) before distribution to petrol stations, but no idea if this is the case. I don't think it was any kind of official source where I read that.

I did wonder about that too, but as it now runs fine again on regular unleaded I don't think so.
If there was a blockage it would still be there and still run badly?

Anyway it's not all bad - my bike runs on 'cheap(er)' fuel. Happy days!

[darrsi]

One thing that does alter the feel of my bike is the weather, it can feel slightly grumpy in cold weather, but I simply put that down to the bike not up to full operating temperature because of the low mileage I do.
No problems at all in summer though.

Saying that, the Fazer is the first bike I've had in years that prefers warm conditions, my last 2 bikes functioned better in cooler weather?

It's all a conundrum.  :lol

[JoeRock]

Certainly with my 9, and it looks to be the same with my 10, using V-power makes the bike quite a bit more efficient, to the point where it was making it cost effective to run it on the more expensive fuel as the increased mpg cancelled it out. Need to check the petrol prices down here in Kent though to make sure that's still going on!


All I know so far is commuting in my 9 does about 45mpg on normal, and about 50 on V-Power. Long as the super is less than 10% more expensive, it's all good. Plus, means I save time not having to fill the bike up as much as I can get an extra day out of the range!

[darrsi]

Result: My bike runs like shit on Shell V power, spluttering & stalling. Tank drained, Texaco 95 ron in, runs good.  :\

Have you used it before with the same problems?

I'm clutching at straws here but is it at all possible you may have had water in the tank, or just a bad tank of fuel, and by draining it you've totally cleared the problem?
Just a thought!

[Dead Eye]

I run V-Power in both my car and thou as they benefit slightly from it. The car gets up to +10% efficiency on motorway runs (but it drinks fuel like no tomorrow anyway) and the thou just feels a little better on it - no increased power that I can tell. I mostly run it in the thou because of the enhanced cleaning properties and it helps be to earn points with their loyalty scheme

The 600 however seemed to run a bit worse with the 99 RON stuff. I reckon nick might be on to something with suggesting that the cleaning properties had loosened some crap and blocked the jets as my 600 has never been in good condition - something I plan on rectifying... eventually...

[nick crisp]

One thing that does alter the feel of my bike is the weather, it can feel slightly grumpy in cold weather, but I simply put that down to the bike not up to full operating temperature because of the low mileage I do.
No problems at all in summer though.

Saying that, the Fazer is the first bike I've had in years that prefers warm conditions, my last 2 bikes functioned better in cooler weather?

It's all a conundrum.  :lol

That's odd. Most bikes run better in cold (dry) conditions because you have a greater density to the air that it takes in, giving better efficiency - er, or something like that  :lol

[Mark YPVS]

Tried my R1 (1st inj model) on super (esso) last week and it ran really bad, kept getting error code 20 (map sensor) fault ,  just filled it up with normal today, error code went in about 5 mins and the bike runs much better.


Note: full hindle super sport system/ pc3/ k&n.


Mark

[VNA]

I wonder if any of the perceived power / response increase is all in the mind or a sort of placebo effect.

Absolutely, you got it.  Firstly the names, ultimate, super, v-power etc, premium products that you pay more for - they must be better - right?

Wrong.  92RON petrol contains the same amount of energy or bang as 99RON.  What 99 RON offers is better 'knock' protection or a slower burn.

It's all about ignition, timing and a controlled burn.  ie - at what point in the cycle the fuel is lit.  The fuel is ignited before Top Dead Centre (TDC) as the fuel is being compressed.  If it is ignited too soon it will start to explode before TDC, which will give you knock, and if you keep getting that you'll get a heat build up and burn't oot valves.

High compression engines, or many of those running turbos need a higher octane fuel (often 98RON), if you run them on a lower octane fuel like 95 or 92 RON you risk 'knock' or 'pinking'.  Note that most if not all cars that require 98RON today have knock detection that will adjust the timing to prevent engine damage.

As for my bike a GEN1 Fazer Thou.  It's timing is set for 92RON.  In the UK our standard fuel is 95RON.  If you use 98RON, it's like igniting the fuel too late, you are getting the big push just slightly further down the stroke.

So in  summery if you use a higher octane than recommended, then the engine will run absolutely fine but will make very slightly less power.

And never use an octane less than recommended.

[darrsi]

I'm sticking with the 97.
It certainly works better than 95 for my bike no matter how much i read into it, it's just a simple fact.

[Aegis Bearing Mel]

Pay day treat for 'Bee was a tank of the guid stuff, usually BP Ultimate, although Shell if I couldn't make it to a BP.
Rest of the time it was BP or Asda cooking petrol, but always liked to think that the additives in the premium one once a month helped keep the gubbins clean.

[NorthWestern]

I'm with Darrsi on this,


For a month or so I ran alternate tanks of shell v-power and normal shell every 2 days (my commute uses a full tank every 2 days), you can definitely feel a difference and doing it over a long period like that negates any "placebo effect".  When switching it does take a few miles to kick in, presumably the old fuel is still in the fuel lines/carbs but when it does it runs crisper and has slightly more zip.


As far as I know my bike is stock (apart from the silencer that is), I checked the needles not long after I got it to see if it had been "ivanised" but they are stock although I didn't check the jets (maybe it has a different kit in it I don't know), std air filter etc.  It did have race supersport tyres on though (Pirelli SC1 K2's), either they were bought second hand or the bike had been on a track because they were bobbled off the edges on both front and rear so it could be that the previous owner fettled it for track days, who knows.


It is odd that people find their bikes run poorer with it though, I have always tried v-power in my bikes and never had any detrimental performance.  In fact, my lawn mower even runs better if I syphon v-power from my bike when it needs filling, it sputters less and doesn't have a slight stutter when going from tick over to full throttle and that surely isn't setup for high octane fuel

[nick crisp]

Thing is with the V Power, I don't think it's just the higher octane that's responsible for improvements. Shell have banged on about how they've put a lot of R&D into this fuel, working with Ferrari among others to achieve what they have, and that doesn't sound to me like just banging up the octane level. I have not found similar improvements with higher octane fuel from other producers.

VNA, whilst much of what you say seems to make sense, I think you are wrong about the placebo effect with this particular fuel. We all dislike certain things about the politics behind fossil fuel production, and maybe the fuel companies do not operate in an entirely ethical manner, but this doesn't mean that they don't know a bit about how to produce a decent fuel, or indeed, how to make advances in the field. I remain convinced that V Power gives me the improvements I claim. And for me it's not about producing more power. I honestly couldn't say if this is the case. But it improves pick up, and makes for smoother running lower down the rev range. That is why I like it. And if the higher octane causes a loss of power for the timing reasons you suggest, well the bike is no slouch, and that's a fact! Also, I've been using it in Fazers long enough now to know that there are no long term ill effects. Good enough for me 

[noggythenog]

For what it's worth i filled up my tank with super unleaded before storing for the winter as i think being a higher quality fuel it will take longer to go off or when it does go off will take longer to get to the stage where it wont run.


At the end of the day it cost a few pence extra and its only tank of fuel on a bike so worth a try i reckon

[sadlonelygit]

Result: My bike runs like shit on Shell V power, spluttering & stalling. Tank drained, Texaco 95 ron in, runs good.  :\

are you sure you didn't put diesel in by mistake!

[Simon.Pieman]

For what it's worth i filled up my tank with super unleaded before storing for the winter as i think being a higher quality fuel it will take longer to go off or when it does go off will take longer to get to the stage where it wont run.

At the end of the day it cost a few pence extra and its only tank of fuel on a bike so worth a try i reckon

It's not 'higher quality' it's a higher RON value that's all. Read VNA's post, he very nicely puts to rest the cobblers being said on this thread about fuels with zippy names.
If you are storing your bike over winter add fuel preservative to the tank to prevent it going off, then you can be certain it will be fine come springtime rather than taking a risk.

[nick crisp]

It's not 'higher quality' it's a higher RON value that's all. Read VNA's post, he very nicely puts to rest the cobblers being said on this thread about fuels with zippy names.

Ok, what Shell say is cobblers, and I am to believe you over them, and my personal experience with this fuel. Well, I'd be willing to do that perhaps if you give us some background on your experience of developing and producing fuels for ICEs. It's good to have such experts on this forum 

[Simon.Pieman]

Ok, what Shell say is cobblers, and I am to believe you over them, and my personal experience with this fuel. Well, I'd be willing to do that perhaps if you give us some background on your experience of developing and producing fuels for ICEs. It's good to have such experts on this forum 

I'll ignore the straw man arguement, of course I don't develop fuels. But, I used to race 24hr endurance in the eighties and our team were sponsored by Rock Oil who doctored our fuel with octane boosters -for a conventional engine that's really the only mod you can make to petrol to improve running (when you have increased the compression and/or squish) Believe me, if we could have added other chemicals to improve running we would known about them and had access to them.
Since you are trying to get me on a technical point regarding fuel and you believe what Shell tell you, how about telling me the technical information Shell have supplied to you about these 'advanced' fuels?
I don't mean marketing nonsense such as  'longer engine life, cleaner engine' blah blah. What chemicals are Shell adding to these fuels that are proven to improve running?

[nick crisp]

It looks like the two key components in modern performance fuels are cleaning agents, and friction modifiers. The former to prevent carbon deposit build up which can reduce performance, and the latter to reduce (obviously) friction, especially between the piston rings and the walls of the cylinder. Of course whilst with wet clutch engines you wouldn't want friction modifiers in engine oil as they would reduce clutch bite, in the cylinder there are no such problems, as long as a good seal between cylinder wall and piston rings is maintained.

And of course, if you examine what Shell are prepared to tell Joe Public, you won't get much in depth technical information about the work they have put into fuel development (do you really need me to explain why this would be?!  :rolleyes). Which of course is nothing, because as you imply, obviously quite rightly, Shell just came up with an advertising campaign that tells a pack of lies as in fact they sat on their arses and did nothing. Just re-labelled the same kinds of fuel that you used in the 80s. Of course when you raced in the 80s, you found out all the science that will ever be possible to know about engine performance and fuels, because you had the full, huge budget of a multi-national company at your disposal, who could see into the future and decide there would never be any further improvement, no matter what anyone did. In a way, it's a shame that by the 80s, everyone knew everything there would ever be to know in the field of science. This is why, presumably, you went on to win in GP racing at circuits around the world, and I would assume, you are still doing. I am suitably and humbly impressed  :lol

Here's something for you to ignore, or skim without really having any interest. Of course the bits you will carefully pick out are the marketing hype (shock, horror, there is some of that?!  :eek ) that prove what you say about "marketing nonsense such as 'longer life, cleaner engine' blah blah."

http://www.shell.co.uk/gbr/products-serv...AprN8P8HAQ

So here's an idea. Why don't you, or anyone else for that matter, take Shell to court for false advertising? You are guaranteed a win 

If you choose to reply to this, don't forget to continually bang on about octane boosting whilst ignoring any other possible components that can be added to fuel 
Be warned, I may also choose to ignore your arguments too. Fair's fair, right?  :lol


P.S. Whilst I would normally not write in this style, I am trying to adopt the tone that you set, because I think it is one that you will understand more readily.  :thumbup  Oh, and I just made up everything I said before you joined the discussion because I'm a compulsive liar. But if you wish to (obviously fruitlessly) attempt to verify any of it, contact Brett at Woodford Motorcycles and Del at Del's Motorcycles and Tyres, Cirencester. Of course all the tuning the latter does for road and track is a complete waste of time because you quite clearly know better, so there's no more to be said. What would be the point in having more than one person (yourself) with experience in this field?


:rollin

[Mark YPVS]

I had never heard the term "straw man argument" and had to google it :rolleyes


so i still not sure on the petrol but i learned something new  :rollin :rollin :rollin


Mark