If I were to.....................

[richfzs]

Where does it say that it is illegal to ride with the flip-front up? Nowhere as far as I can find. I have searched all over for something definitive as laid down by the law, and there is nothing, just loads of layman-level discussion. True, you'd be daft to have it up much over 30mph (or whatever) 'cause the wind is gonna try and rip your head off, but law? No, not as far as I can see. As said, if you know better, PLEASE QUOTE SOURCE.

You won't find anything in the law says its illegal to ride with the flip "flipped", because that in itself isn't illegal. The lid, however, has to meet a set of criteria to get its BS / CE standard mark. The majority of lids are only tested with the flip down, in effect as a full face lid, to get their stamp of approval. So if you ride with it up, then you're not wearing a legal helmet. More and more lids are now starting to get tested both as a full face and a open face (and to do so, they must have the secure latch that someone mentioned), and these fellas you can ride with it up or down, as it has both certifications.

(and others have told me that the chin-bar itself is not crash-tested at all),

I believe that to be complete garbage - AIUI, the chin bar has to take the same test as a standard full face

And agreed, a copper telling you so is not gonna be enough - where is HIS source? Coppers do not know everything there is to know about the law.

Indeedy they do not  :lol :lol

[Grahamm]

191 You MUST NOT park on a crossing or in the area covered by the zig-zag lines. You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.
Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 18, 20 & 24, RTRA sect 25(5) & TSRGD regs 10, 27 & 28

Interestingly, the definition of "overtake" (see ZPPCRGD section 24) is when your front wheel passes the line of the front wheels of the vehicle ahead.

Consequently, you just need to adjust the timing of your approach such that *their* front wheels cross the Stop Line (if a light-controlled crossing) or the dashes in front of a Zebra crossing first, then you can pass them legally

[midden]

[quote author=Pat link=topic=13885.msg157074#msg157074 date=1404423742]
191 You MUST NOT park on a crossing or in the area covered by the zig-zag lines. You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.
Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 18, 20 & 24, RTRA sect 25(5) & TSRGD regs 10, 27 & 28

Interestingly, the definition of "overtake" (see ZPPCRGD section 24) is when your front wheel passes the line of the front wheels of the vehicle ahead.

Consequently, you just need to adjust the timing of your approach such that *their* front wheels cross the Stop Line (if a light-controlled crossing) or the dashes in front of a Zebra crossing first, then you can pass them legally
[/quote]


You may have just discovered a new mounting position for the action cam.
'If you look at my photostart hofficer you will see the car front wheels had passed the stop line, so I was legally hentitled to overtake *hic*

[TonyW]

On the label sewn usually to the strap of your helmet will be  a number something like 05XXXXX/P-0XXXXXX, or 05XXXXX/J-0XXXXXX  or finally 05XXXXX/P-J-0XXXXX
P is tested for full face approval
J is tested for open face approval
P-J is Full and open approval
Unless the helmet is approved P-J it is illegal to use a flip front helmet with the chin bar open.

[Exupnut]

Sorry you're wrong
By your reckoning open face helmets are illegal and a visor cant be lifted
Being stopped by a jobsworth copper in Gloucestershire isnt exactly crown court evidence. They stopped me for a tinted headlight cover.
Did he quote the law or just get  high and mighty
S13/14/15 of the RTA doesn't mention it at all

Sorry your wrong??? Dont fink so mate...

[Simon.Pieman]

[quote author=Pat link=topic=13885.msg157074#msg157074 date=1404423742]
191 You MUST NOT park on a crossing or in the area covered by the zig-zag lines. You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.
Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 18, 20 & 24, RTRA sect 25(5) & TSRGD regs 10, 27 & 28

section 24[/url]) is when your front wheel passes the line of the front wheels of the vehicle ahead.

Consequently, you just need to adjust the timing of your approach such that *their* front wheels cross the Stop Line (if a light-controlled crossing) or the dashes in front of a Zebra crossing first, then you can pass them legally
[/quote]
Unless it's a bicycle you should not overtake a moving vehicle within zigzags, read section 28 part  a, here.
http://www.croydoncyclist.co.uk/overtaki...restingly, the definition of "overtake" (see [url=http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/ZPPPCRGD-1997.pdf]ZPPCRGD

[Skippernick]

[quote author=Grahamm link=topic=13885.msg157085#msg157085 date=1404430656]
[quote author=Pat link=topic=13885.msg157074#msg157074 date=1404423742]
191 You MUST NOT park on a crossing or in the area covered by the zig-zag lines. You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.
Laws ZPPPCRGD regs 18, 20 & 24, RTRA sect 25(5) & TSRGD regs 10, 27 & 28

section 24) is when your front wheel passes the line of the front wheels of the vehicle ahead.

Consequently, you just need to adjust the timing of your approach such that *their* front wheels cross the Stop Line (if a light-controlled crossing) or the dashes in front of a Zebra crossing first, then you can pass them legally
[/quote]
Unless it's a bicycle you should not overtake a moving vehicle within zigzags, read section 28 part  a, here.
http://www.croydoncyclist.co.uk/overtaki...restingly, the definition of "overtake" (see ZPPCRGD
[/quote]


Thats wrong, i think the highway code as stated in the previous post trumps some cycle website.

[richfzs]

On the label sewn usually to the strap of your helmet will be  a number something like 05XXXXX/P-0XXXXXX, or 05XXXXX/J-0XXXXXX  or finally 05XXXXX/P-J-0XXXXX
P is tested for full face approval
J is tested for open face approval
P-J is Full and open approval
Unless the helmet is approved P-J it is illegal to use a flip front helmet with the chin bar open.

Thanks Tony, that's a nice way of identifying the differences I posted about earlier - cheers! :thumbup

[Simon.Pieman]

Thats wrong, i think the highway code as stated in the previous post trumps some cycle website.

Read it, the cycle website is quoting from this:-


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/...on/28/made


section a.

[Skippernick]

[quote author=Skippernick link=topic=13885.msg157107#msg157107 date=1404452806]


Thats wrong, i think the highway code as stated in the previous post trumps some cycle website.

Read it, the cycle website is quoting from this:-


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/...on/28/made


section a.
[/quote]


Man, i haven't got time to read linkys, all i know is what advanced police motorcyclists have said, you can overtake all vehicles apart from the lead vehicle when in a zigzag area.

[Grahamm]

Read it, the cycle website is quoting from this:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/...on/28/made
section a.

True, but if you read the whole thing, you'll note in part (2):

"(a)the reference to a motor vehicle in sub-paragraph (a) is, in a case where more than one motor vehicle is proceeding in the same direction as the approaching vehicle in a controlled area, a reference to the motor vehicle nearest to the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates.

Road marking shown in diagram 1001.3: zig-zag lines—no overtaking

28.  (1)  Without prejudice to regulation 27, a zig-zag line shall convey the requirement that, whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—

(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or

(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with the indication given by a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic.

(2) In paragraph (1)—

(a)the reference to a motor vehicle in sub-paragraph (a) is, in a case where more than one motor vehicle is proceeding in the same direction as the approaching vehicle in a controlled area, a reference to the motor vehicle nearest to the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates; and

(b)the reference to a stationary vehicle is, in a case where more than one vehicle is stationary in a controlled area for the purpose of complying with the indication given by a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic, a reference to the stationary vehicle nearest the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates.

[maddog04]

all i know is what advanced police motorcyclists have said, you can overtake all vehicles apart from the lead vehicle when in a zigzag area.

that's what I was told on my advanced course....................the odd thing tho is that peeps on here seem to think its the car stopped at the lights........well what about the cars on the other side of the crossing but still in the zigzags?
potentially you pull up just shy of the car at the crossing and the lights change.......you have to pass him........the crossing can't have any relevance, it has to be the car at the front of the zigzags

the Police rider we had used to go through the law asking us questions about this that and the other........there was always an exception to every rule you couldn't break
eg. "You must not cross/overtake on a solid white line"
but you can if its a cyclist doing less than 12mph (?????FFS how do they make these rules?) amongst others

[Skippernick]

all i know is what advanced police motorcyclists have said, you can overtake all vehicles apart from the lead vehicle when in a zigzag area.

that's what I was told on my advanced course....................the odd thing tho is that peeps on here seem to think its the car stopped at the lights........well what about the cars on the other side of the crossing but still in the zigzags?
potentially you pull up just shy of the car at the crossing and the lights change.......you have to pass him........the crossing can't have any relevance, it has to be the car at the front of the zigzags

the Police rider we had used to go through the law asking us questions about this that and the other........there was always an exception to every rule you couldn't break
eg. "You must not cross/overtake on a solid white line"
but you can if its a cyclist doing less than 12mph (?????FFS how do they make these rules?) amongst others

The zigzags aren't there to indicate where you can and can't overtake, they have no bearing on overtaking, they are there as an absolutely no parking zone to keep the crossing clear for cars and pedestrians to be able to see each other without obstructions. Hence yellow zigzags outside schools.

[maddog04]

we know that Skip, the post is about overtaking in a zigzag area and the debate seems to highlighting a few areas for discussion
Police class 1 riders told me you can but the debate seems to be going down a route that you cannot pass the vehicle at the crossing (all well and good but see my last post about what's on the other side of the crossing when the lights change.......can you now ride past all vehicle but not pass the vehicle at the front of the zigzag zone?)

Stevie......can you clarify once and for all?

[Skippernick]

we know that Skip, the post is about overtaking in a zigzag area and the debate seems to highlighting a few areas for discussion
Police class 1 riders told me you can but the debate seems to be going down a route that you cannot pass the vehicle at the crossing (all well and good but see my last post about what's on the other side of the crossing when the lights change.......can you now ride past all vehicle but not pass the vehicle at the front of the zigzag zone?)

Stevie......can you clarify once and for all?

Yes, thats exactly what i mean! The zigzags on the other side of the crossing have no relevance to you when going in a direction for overtaking. If we followed your logic then you would only need to paint zigzags on the oncoming traffic side i.e. diagonally opposite sides. I repeat they are to enforce no parking zones.

[Doddsie]

Zig zags outside the school near me are white!! 

[Skippernick]

Fair enough

[stevierst]

Ok, I'll get involved, it's gone a bit far this!

Zig sags are purely there for the safety of pedestrians using the crossing, hence why they're on both sides of the crossing, and road. Agreed?

Basically, don't park within them, and don't overtake the vehicle that's closest to them in your lane. Opposite side of the carriageway has the same rules.

Golden rule is, if you can't see the whole crossing including the pavement where pedestrians stand, then you shouldn't be overtaking.

Consider the elderly taking more time to cross, children being smaller and not as easily seen, and cyclists (at toucan crossings) appearing quickly from out of nowhere as they generally do!

It's a 3 pointer, and a fine which I believe is now £80 (not done anyone for a while). Or the death penalty for the pedestrian you hit!

Now stop arguing ya bloody drama queens and go have a beer!

[Skippernick]

Yes drunkstable :bobby

[mickvp]

On the label sewn usually to the strap of your helmet will be  a number something like 05XXXXX/P-0XXXXXX, or 05XXXXX/J-0XXXXXX  or finally 05XXXXX/P-J-0XXXXX
P is tested for full face approval
J is tested for open face approval
P-J is Full and open approval
Unless the helmet is approved P-J it is illegal to use a flip front helmet with the chin bar open.

I popped out and checked my Nolan N103 there (which I know has duel type approval) and it appears what you have said is sound :