23-08-21, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-21, 03:24 PM by darrsi.)
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.
I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435 :'(
No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.
I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.
And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
Quote:So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -
But (as I said) Yamaha will give you a figure which is over the limit. Been there, done that.
NOX figures were only entered onto V5s later, so only the manufacturer can provide an official figure.
Of course individual bikes might give a lower NOX figure, especially if the mixture has been adjusted, such as with a non OE air filter. But then you need it individually tested, and for that you are at the mercy of the only approved testing workshop..... who have you by the short and curlies :eek
When I contacted Yamaha about my 600 they said they couldn't give any figures as the bike was manufactured before testing began which at first I thought it strange since it's the same year as my thou But I figure tests would be carried out on the first batch of a new models which the 600 was 1998? and the thou 2001?
(23-08-21, 03:17 PM)darrsi link Wrote: My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.
I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435 :'(
No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.
I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.
And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
So clean high grade fuel and dirty filter is key?
I'm thinking of having mine tested but don't fancy a £300+ bill
Women have chocolate men have bikes.....
including ones who like chocolate....
(26-08-21, 04:52 AM)midden link Wrote: [quote author=mtread link=topic=24142.msg326733#msg326733 date=1628423237]
Quote:So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -
But (as I said) Yamaha will give you a figure which is over the limit. Been there, done that.
NOX figures were only entered onto V5s later, so only the manufacturer can provide an official figure.
Of course individual bikes might give a lower NOX figure, especially if the mixture has been adjusted, such as with a non OE air filter. But then you need it individually tested, and for that you are at the mercy of the only approved testing workshop..... who have you by the short and curlies :eek
When I contacted Yamaha about my 600 they said they couldn't give any figures as the bike was manufactured before testing began which at first I thought it strange since it's the same year as my thou But I figure tests would be carried out on the first batch of a new models which the 600 was 1998? and the thou 2001?
(23-08-21, 03:17 PM)darrsi link Wrote: My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.
I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435 :'(
No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.
I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.
And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
So clean high grade fuel and dirty filter is key?
I'm thinking of having mine tested but don't fancy a £300+ bill
[/quote]
Basically yeah, that's what has been suggested.
I've been using ethanol free ESSO Supreme 99 for a couple of months now as my bike seems to love it so I had no issues there.
And I was in two minds whether to clean my filter or not before the test, but I've just had 2 weeks off work and there was a sunny day last week which helps the K&N dry quicker naturally after cleaning so I took advantage of it while I had spare time on my hands.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
26-08-21, 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-21, 08:10 PM by b1k3rdude.)
Here's the reply I got from Yamaha for the FZS600 back in 2019..The pass level (euro3) is 0.15.
Quote:Thank you for your enquiry.We do however regret to advise that only models constructed to comply with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, regulations that were not fully introduced until 2003, will qualify for a CoC.
Due to the age of your machine it was not subject to European Whole Type Approval testing, in this instance we can only advise the NOx output for the Model code, therefore a machine of that model of a similar age, which was 0.185
]We apologise we are not able to be of assistance.
I'm going to try some black wrap around the link pipe to keep the thieving eyes away from it.
Im not a welding expert by any stretch and someone please correct me if Im wrong but I have several issue with that cut-n-shut job -
Imho that link pipe looks like Stainless steel, so whats with the cheap-ass paint job covering the even worse quality welds? (they bead is all over the place and they didnt even bother to clean off the weld spatter, which is the least I would have expect for the amount of money they charged!)
Why did they have to cut into the link pipe at all, why didnt that just shove it into the end
Regarding covering it up, just replace the link pipe. Now that your bike is on tfl's bull$hit system there is absolutely no way tfl can prove oitherwise. Then just keep the modded link pipe for if and when you sell the bike or when the government introduce nationwide emissions testing which will put Riverbank ripoff merchants out of business.
I would guess that their thinking is that welding it in stops it from being removed. The ones I saw online before I had it done look like a male/female extension you just pop in between the pipe and the end can.
I still have 2 other exhaust systems at home (pipe & end cans) if I want to easily change it, but I have to admit the bike sounds quite good right now and is running extremely smooth. It now sounds more like a bigger engined bike, but in a nice way compared to how it was before.
My Quill end can is technically a race can, and I reckon the Cat. has created a tiny bit of back pressure which the bike seems absolutely fine with, so in general I'm happy with the way things are right now.
I did cover up the pipe with exhaust wrap though.
As for the welding, I was a little shocked when I saw it, because I never knew they were going to do that, but I'm not really bothered by it. I was jokingly texting a friend at the time it was being done that it sounded like the A-Team in the workshop as there was a lot of angle grinding and welding going on, without realising it was my bike they were doing it to.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(29-08-21, 08:17 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote: Im not a welding expert by any stretch and someone please correct me if Im wrong but I have several issue with that cut-n-shut job -
[li]Imho that link pipe looks like Stainless steel, so whats with the cheap-ass paint job covering the even worse quality welds? (they bead is all over the place and they didnt even bother to clean off the weld spatter, which is the least I would have expect for the amount of money they charged!)[/l][[/l][/l]
I was trained in welding in a past life and you're right, this is poor welding at best. Looks like they've used a MIG welder, which is the cheapest and quickest route, MIG is one of the most common welder system out there and the easiest to learn and use. The best method to weld stainless sheet, especially thin tubing is TIG. But it requires more time to learn and a lot more skill as you have to control the torch with one hand and the welding material, the rod with the other. Because it takes time to obtain the skill it's not used by many. All that said a skilled MIG welder with the correct wire/gas flux mix should be capable of producing better quality welds than this.
(29-08-21, 08:17 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote:
[li]Why did they have to cut into the link pipe at all, why didnt that just shove it into the end[/l][/l]
Because the downtube collector stub slides into the end of the silencer link pipe, meaning it would need to be pushed up the pipe 50mm or so to allow the collector stub to slide in. That would make it very difficult with MiG or TIG but possible, although it would take skill. The CAT should have and are with quality conversations, fitted/welded into the collector stub. This requires more skill and can present other technical issues, like the early FZS systems they're are not stainless and special wire or rods are required to weld. They other method is interference fit but this would mean bespoke CAT elements for each bike and that would cost.
Basically this is as cheapest job they can get away with, on as many different bikes as possible with and max their profit.
I've seen a FZ6 downtubes they have CATs in them, cut and reconfigure to fit an FZS, to get through the Pairs equivalent to our ULEZ.
(29-08-21, 08:17 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote:
Regarding covering it up, just replace the link pipe. Now that your bike is on tfl's bull$hit system there is absolutely no way tfl can prove oitherwise.
Personally I'm in total agreement with the law, we've got to reduce emissions. In that case I wouldn't recommend this course of action and I'm told they do or are planning to do spot checks, e.g. you get tested on the spot, or you have to go directly to a test area. This would make sense and is the only way to ensure people don't take the piss. It's going to get much tougher in the coming years, whether we like it or not.
(29-08-21, 08:17 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote:
when the government introduce nationwide emissions testing which will put Riverbank ripoff merchants out of business.
It's on it way, all new bikes for some years now have had CATs fitted as standard, they've also had full loop fuel/air/ignition/emission systems, they just not been required to be tested in the UK at MOT. They will, at some point quite soon and its very likely it will be illegal to change them i.e. cutting out CATs shoving on open exhaust, engine remaps etc. Many make the assumption, noise is power and what worked 40 odd yrs ago works on late 90's on, WRONG.
Riverbank I agree are just fleecing people, they've got a monopoly which shouldn't be allowed. Governments are looking for the cheapest, fastest and as profitable as possible ways, to force older vehicles off the road, especially those doing daily commuting into cities/towns. Iv'e said it many times, if you have to daily or often commute into London or any city and will do for at least a year, get yourself a late model maxi scooter. You can pick them up for less than a years ULEZ charge, bearing in mind many other large cities and town either have a charge or soon will have.
The other point I'd take real issue with, is the statement apparently made by the bod at Riverside. Apparently he said, "having a clean air filter will make the NOX higher" and then in the next breath and I quote "he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass."
Utter bollocks, as will running higher octane fuel will reduce emissions, just shows you what they don't know. Classic case of a little bit of knowledge and all that :rolleyes
Pretty much anyone can be trained to strap a bike into a dyno and do a run, making sense of the reading from that run and implementing changes, is where the skill comes in. Bit like the organ grinder and the monkey The bike was running higher emissions because it's either their dyno equipment is out of calibration (very common) or the bike isn't set up correctly and/or there's engine/component wear, again very common on nearly 20yr old bike, plain and simple.
Restricted air filter will mean richer fuel mixture, richer fuel mixture = higher NOX. Also using higher octane fuel will increase emissions for an engine not tuned/designed to burn it and could reduce engine power. Admittedly the difference between 95 & 98 will be small, but it will be there. Pretty much all Jap bikes for decades are designed to run on fuel between 80 - 95 octane fuel. One easy way to get more power is to increase compression, more compression and earlier ignition = more power but that increases heat, which in turn causes pre ignition or detonation. Which means, you lose most of the gains of running higher compression. To overcome this higher octane fuel was produced, it requires more heat to burn as such can run higher compression before ignition via compression heat or pre detonation. Result more power due to a stable detention, the higher the octane the higher the compression = more power.
To burn higher octane fuel efficiently requires higher compression and more ignition advance. Just shoving in 98 will do absolutely nothing to increase power, possibly the opposite, probably not much, not even noticeable by the rider but there. If you do nothing to the bike to accommodate running higher octane, you will get no increase in power a richer mixture and increased emissions, FACT
I had a chap contact me, who'd removed the CATs and EXUP valve from his XJR1300 and fitted a freeflow exhaust system at a cost of almost 3k, running on V power. Now it doesn't start, idle or drive very well low end - mid range and then found out it's producing only 95bhp, standard a good one will put out 103 - 5. Unless the fuel/ignition systems are modified to take into account the changes they can't take advantage, not there is much anyway couple bhp at most. Like many others I've seen and will see, he listened to internet plagisiers :rolleyes and wasted 3k. To fix it either pay out more to get it properly set up or put it back to standard, which will cost him more as he destroyed his downtubes. Fitting a cat doesn't mean less power and any reduction will be very small and only at the very top end and who rides around everywhere with the throttled nailed :lol
What many UK bikes can and do benefit from is advancing the ignition by around 4* this makes starting, better and gives a cleaner/smoother burn, bike feels more responsive. Some bikes actually produce a few hp lower down and in the emission holes manufactures create to get through type approval. Why can you do this in the UK, because the engine is designed to run of fuel as low as 80 certainly low 90's, here in the UK all fuel is above 95.
(02-09-21, 02:28 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: What many UK bikes can and do benefit from is advancing the ignition by around 4* this makes starting, better and gives a cleaner/smoother burn, bike feels more responsive. Some bikes actually produce a few hp lower down and in the emission holes manufactures create to get through type approval. Why can you do this in the UK, because the engine is designed to run of fuel as low as 80 certainly low 90's, here in the UK all fuel is above 95.
This is what I've done on my FZ6, also I got a Power Commander III to smooth out the power delivery and take out the hole between 5-6k revs which Yamaha put in to give better emissions during testing...! :thumbup
(23-08-21, 03:17 PM)darrsi link Wrote: My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.
I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435 :'(
No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.
I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.
And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
Did you happen to see what cat they installed? I need to get one fitted but buggered if I'm letting them do that to my pipe and charge that much for the pleasure!
(05-09-21, 01:15 AM)bald_pig link Wrote: [quote author=darrsi link=topic=24142.msg326869#msg326869 date=1629728230]
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.
I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435 :'(
No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.
I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.
And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
Did you happen to see what cat they installed? I need to get one fitted but buggered if I'm letting them do that to my pipe and charge that much for the pleasure!
[/quote]
No, he was quite clear about me not being allowed in the workshop, which is fair enough i s'pose due to health & safety and covid current standard practices.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.
(08-09-21, 06:03 AM)darrsi link Wrote: No, he was quite clear about me not being allowed in the workshop, which is fair enough i s'pose due to health & safety and covid current standard practices.
I get not being allowed into the w/s, but being deliberately blocked from seeing what they are doing to YOUR property is another thing entirely and something I cannot abide. Your paying them to work, so as the person with the money I want to see that my bike is being treated with respect. A lot of shops either have a viewing window or you can view it from outside via the w/s entrance in some instances.
Both times I had the displeasure of speaking to the owner of RB mc/s on the phone he came across and arrogant and belligerent, not what you want to hear as a potential customer. Its why ultimately I sold my Bandit 1200 and Fzs1000 for a 1250 and FZ1, his customer skills and his deminer meant that I preferred to go through all the hassle of selling and buying bikes than giving that utter c***! a single penny of my money. My reaction/stance may seem at first unreasonable, but I have spoken to over a dozen bike shops around London and either they themselves have witnessed it or their customers have.
(05-09-21, 01:15 AM)bald_pig link Wrote: Did you happen to see what cat they installed? I need to get one fitted but buggered if I'm letting them do that to my pipe and charge that much for the pleasure!
As mentioned in my post above one way is to fit a later FZ6 link pipe, it requires some fabrication but that is fairly straightforward for any skilled fabricator.
Or you can go the same route as Riverbank they will fit something very similar if not the very same as, they come in various sizes to suit your pipe diameter. I've not used these, but know of people who have. In a lot of EU countries bikes are tested for emissions and have been for years, many owners are forced to retro fit as it was country wide not just a specific city or town etc.
Unlike the UK where the market has concentrated on decat, link pipes etc. This will change and at speed, as mentioned all new bikes within a few years at most, will be emission tested like cars and I think it's very possible in time any vehicle under going the standard MOT will to.
At present any vehicle over 40yrs old is exempt from MOT and VED, because they're deemed not to be variable for daily use, commuting etc. Yes a few might still be used to commuting but the vast majority will be weekend, high days and holiday use only.
(08-09-21, 09:52 AM)mtread link Wrote: Isn't the problem that even if you do a DIY Cat, or otherwise adjust your emissions, Riverbank are the only shop authorised to test?
Quite possibly, but as other city's/towns start adopting ULEZ zones, I'm sure a test from another approved place will be acceptable. That could already be the case I've no idea, I use my maxi scooter to enter London or any major city/town for commuting/work.
Just so much easier and cheaper, just twist and go
