sharing an experience

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316545#msg316545 date=1592541472]
Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.


If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.


OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.


I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?

actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.  now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads,  therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying .  personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
[/quote]


Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?

[Gnasher]

Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.

That's your choice mate  :rolleyes  But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will.  New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10. 

I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.

Nope, crows foot spanner 

[butthead]

[quote author=butthead link=topic=26267.msg316562#msg316562 date=1592557119]
[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316545#msg316545 date=1592541472]
Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.


If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.


OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.


I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?

actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.  now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads,  therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying .  personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
[/quote]


Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?




yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it  put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off.    ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.
[/quote]

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316554#msg316554 date=1592554895]
Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.

That's your choice mate  :rolleyes  But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will.  New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10. 

I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.

Nope, crows foot spanner 
[/quote]


I just noticed you can get a couple of washers for about £2.60 on Ebay. 


That's very weird you should mention a 'crows foot' spanner because i stumbled on them early this morning (not even sure how?) and i was trying to think of a scenario where they would be useful?
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316563#msg316563 date=1592557332]
[quote author=butthead link=topic=26267.msg316562#msg316562 date=1592557119]
[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316545#msg316545 date=1592541472]
Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.


If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.


OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.


I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?

actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.  now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads,  therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying .  personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
[/quote]


Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?




yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it  put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off.    ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.
[/quote]
[/quote]


Obviously i don't know how badly stripped it feels, but there's a small chance that a new bolt might help? By no means definite of course, but even a fraction of better thread might be enough to bite more?
I'm just having a look about now, it took me a while but i found one at a really decent price from some obscure place when i bought my replacement.

[Gnasher]

actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.

If the bolt/sump plug is still in there and is short as you say, the thread above the shorten bolt should still be serviceable?  If so and you can remove the bolt and use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread. 

personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?

Most over tighten all bolts, when you consider you can put about 100flbs /135Nm on a 5mm cap head with a allen key,  think what you can do with a 17mm spanner :eek  The 40Nm is to allow for the crush effect, that's the issue with reusing washers, once crushed even flat washers compress hence why they're soft, the same torque is now stressing/stretching the threads.  As a rule the sump bolt/plug needs only about 1/3 turn with a spanner no more, and that's with a new washer.


 

[butthead]

possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !! 

[Gnasher]

Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use. 

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316566#msg316566 date=1592558477]
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use.
[/quote]


This is good to know, i'll have a look next time i get the bike out. Plus i don't think i'm too far off an oil change either. :thumbup

[darrsi]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

[Gnasher]

possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !!

Even though these other 2 bikes I've mentioned about have your issue and have gone through a few oil changers. I still wouldn't recommend you do it long term and stated it's a get around.  You will get the vast majority of the oil out if you tip the bike enough, even if you don't you'll still replacing 80-90% plus of the oil and if you change it within the service specs your be fine. 

All that said the sump bolt leek will slowly get worse, hence 1 of the others having their sump bolt bonded in.  As I told those other two owners, you need to either replace the sump bolt with a OE using what's left of the thread if possible or get the sump repaired/ replaced. 

[Gnasher]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads.  The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads. 

That's why you can use thread lock

It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads.  They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them. 

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316573#msg316573 date=1592560073]
I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads.  The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads. 

That's why you can use thread lock

It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads.  They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them.
[/quote]


"...The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole..."

Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?   :'(


I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again.  :groan

[darrsi]

This bolt is 2 threads shorter than an OEM version, but double the amount of the other magnetic one in my previous photo. Plus it has a magnet added.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RACE-TITANIUM...SwfgRb61UG



It's #11 in the drawing for an OEM plug.
https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-mo...B9/0/24057

[Gnasher]

[size=1em]Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?   :'(
[/size]

I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again.  :groan

No, can't see why this was a problem.  The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either.  Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff.  As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating.   

[Gnasher]

I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
[size=1em]https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-mo...13/0/24057[/size]

No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug. 

Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/416...oil-cooler

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316577#msg316577 date=1592562022]
I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
[size=1em]https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-mo...13/0/24057[/size]

No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug. 

Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/416...oil-cooler
[/quote]


Thought that didn't look right that's why i wanted you to check it.


I've adjusted my post above as it is available on that website.

[darrsi]

[quote author=darrsi link=topic=26267.msg316576#msg316576 date=1592561132]
[size=1em]Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?   :'(
[/size]

I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again.  :groan

No, can't see why this was a problem.  The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either.  Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff.  As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating. 
[/quote]


To be fair when i bought the bike years ago i only paid £800 for it and it was in a very sorry state.
It had basically been used and abused as a toy, which i obviously didn't know at the time, so i don't even want to think about the previous home maintenance that had been done on it.
I slowly worked my way through the whole bike finding and fixing problem after problem and the chances of this particular owner over tightening everything he touched is a massive possibility. So having simple things like a caliper pin strip a thread didn't really surprise me too much as i've found worse things in the past.


To give you an idea what i was dealing with, i changed the oil in the first few days, but i took out 4.5 litres of oil from the sump.  :eek
It was that kind of stupidity that started alarm bells ringing straight away. :look

[Trebus]

How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.

[Gnasher]

How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.

It wouldn't solve the leek mate.