Cornering

[fazersharp]

I just think some good advice when a fella asks a question is nice, at the moment he is changing all his suspension, trying to keep upright while making sure his tyres are the same diameter right across and have no shiny bits...

:lol :lol

[VNA]

Maybe you got a sidecar...or a shit tape measure

Yeah, I think maybe I go that one wrong. :o  Though doesn’t it stay the same opposite side to opposite side diameter.   I’ve never thought about it before.  I mean what does it matter anyway. :lol


So the wheels will speed up on entering the corner.  I guess the twitch must come in when the wheels are slowing and speeding up at different rates?  I dunno :lol

Hold on, I am just saying you can steer a bike without the bars, no one said anything about at speed,

The question was about cornering, and I got the distinct impression it was about cornering at speed.  And let’s face it cornering generally takes place at speed.  Turning is something else.


I tend to agree with the California Superbike school – who as I understand it, state that you can do what you want with your feet, your thighs whatever, but if you wanna be in control of the bike, and you wanna make it turn – you have to put input to the bars.


If you can steer your bike Flooky, you should be able to go round a decent sized roundabout at a decent speed whilst sitting bolt upright.  Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.

[Slaninar]

My long drivelling on countersteering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2530/counte...-steering/

And on cornering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2586/fast-c...ved-roads/

All written in the cycling context, but the basic principles are practically the same.

[agricola]

Ive watched the motogymkhana folks a few time snow, looks to me to be a different tecnique ofr cornering. I reckon they crank the bike over but stay upright themselves. Cornering at speed is a question of balance, the rider shifts his mass over to one side (hangs off) while trying to keep the bike as upright as possible. Go faster into the corner and you then need to lean the bike over more. This subject can be over analysed

[VNA]

Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.

It’s trying to put it right.  Maybe I should try;

Leaning is an important part of getting a bike to corner at high speed, but only input at the bars will make it change direction / initiate the turn.  And for that matter end the turn.


As think Agricola is saying, leaning is an important part of balance, shifting the centre of gravity to maximise grip etc.

[coffee]

Some years ago,Rob Mclnea [racer and team boss] locked the bars so they would not move to see if the bike would turn and he reckoned the bike wouldn't steer at all,so according to him you must have to have input on the bars to steer,and I think he'd know. mokin

[Steve3351]

That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel

Steady on chaps.....!!!! What we need here is harmony.... DO YOU HEAR ME FOCCERS...!!!???....HARMONY...!!! :eek :finger :wall :pokefun mash :2guns

[Steve3351]

I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy.......wot do u FOCCERS think...????? :lol :rollin :'(

[Grahamm]

I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...

[agricola]

Trail braking, no thanks. Either be on the throttle or on the brakes, no slack time in between the two, cos thats lost time, its one or the other, turn in later, lets you get on the throttle quicker and out of the exit. On the track of course

[Dudeofrude]

Trail braking is a brilliant technique that I personally think every rider should learn. It gives you so much more control through the corner and is especially useful on the road where there is a chance of the conditions changing mid corner.
You basically still brake as normal up to the corner but instead of letting go and coasting, you taper the brakes off until the Apex then you go straight back on the throttle. Theres slightly more nuance to it but that's the general just.

People going on about braking mid corner being dangerous clearly don't understand how it works.  If done correctly it gives you more grip and more stability.

If you dont know how it works (or how to do it properly) then I'd suggest watching a few YouTube videos on the subject before trying it for yourself.

Once you get the hang of it you'll be surprised how much more confidence you can get through the bends

[VNA]

I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.

[Millietant]

I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.

Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.


Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.


A brusque Yorkshireman who was also a top racer on both Road Courses (like the IOM TT) and Race Courses once told me at a racing school class that my "trail-braking" that I thought was the way to get my speed down in a corner was me "lining myself up for an early grave".


On the roads and generally on the track (except at the highest levels of skill) riders trail-brake because they get a corner wrong, entering. turns too early and then trying to slow down once in the corner.


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


As I said a couple of sentences Steve, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, unless they're a professional - this is your life you're playing with (especially if you're going to try to ride harder/faster on the roads by trail-braking more !!) - go to a proper track school (not a Track Day, a School session) and get professional advice - it might just save your life !!!

[Millietant]

[quote author=Steve3351 link=topic=25373.msg299668#msg299668 date=1561205137]
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...
[/quote]

Sorry Grahammm & Dude, I have to disagree, trail braking into a bend is not a good thing. I agree with your comment Grahammm of getting the braking done before you hit your turn in point.

Regarding the braking to the apex comment - I've never been taught to brake to the apex and then apply throttle  at the apex and I really think that's a bad approach. Most racers are already on the throttle before the apex. The apex isn't where you aim to stop braking, the turn-in point for the corner is basically where you stop braking.

There's an excellent section in the book "Twist of The Wrist" by Keith Code which explains this clearly (there's a lot of other tecchy stuff in the book that's hard to read too though) - Keith Code founded the California Superbike School and has taught many of the world's top riders over the past 30 years and the first time I did a CSS racing school day, they taught it exactly as it says in the book and still do.

[Dudeofrude]

I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=Millietant link=topic=25373.msg299687#msg299687


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


[/quote]

I'll also add that I think this is excellent advice.

[Millietant]

I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=Dudeofrude link=topic=25373.msg299695#msg299695 date=1561276215]
I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.
[/quote]

That's all fair and valid points. Maybe it's just as I'm so used to it that I cant see a problem with it.
Also maybe I came across with the wrong intention in the sense that I dont believe this is necessarily a method for super fast cornering, more for a (in my opinion) faster, safer cornering practise for the kinds of conditions I ride in.
As I spend most of my time riding through the Lincolnshire wolds I come across a fair amount of animals in the road ( dead or alive) And back when I first started riding i nearly came off after hitting a dead rabbits head in the middle of a blind bend. I was a novice rider at the time and did grab a fist full of front brake but luckily didnt bin it.
After that I started doing training days at Cadwell and attending the ride safe events as well as doing research about advanced riding online etc. That's when I discovered trail braking and started practising it more and more.
Now its second nature to me and i can honestly say its potentially saved my skin no end of time when I've been cranked over mid bend and theres suddenly a dead fox/badger/deer etc in the middle of the road.
Obviously it's not for everyone and that's cool. As light as we all stay rubber side down and get home safe ?

[VNA]

Millietant;

Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.


Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.

If you brake hard approaching a turn, let the brakes go, and then throw the bike on it’s side.  Well think about it, the front suspension will be unloading fast just as you want it to load up again.  This will compromise your grip.  You need to trail the brake a little so the front will not unload just when you need full grip.


I’m not talking about braking whilst leaned over in the middle of a corner.  It’s about the progressive switch from baking to entering the corner.  As you begin to lean the bike you are progressively coming off the brake, and as I’m not a racer I’m completely off the brake long before the apex of a tight turn. 




I googled California Bike School and trail braking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSTbS7yckFo
Long long article here on trail braking
https://www.facebook.com/californiasuper...623295378/

[VNA]

.