BREXIT

[VNA]

So why did they choose the UK over any other EU state in the first place.

The key thing for them was unrestricted single market access.  No more import restrictions and no more tariffs.  Other manufactures of course have chosen other EU countries.



I don’t know precisely why they choose the UK, but I certainly welcome it.  I do know we had skilled workers, and plenty of people in general looking for work.  I would guess there would be government incentives.  The stability of the pound would be attractive, and despite exporting much of the produce the strength of the pound, as a high proportion of the components are imported.  Further the guarantee of single union agreements was key.


What the Japanese did prove though without a doubt, was the problem with the old UK manufacturers was the management, not the workforce. 



But don’t think they are kidding when they say they will consider leaving if there is not a suitable BREXIT deal.  Leave they will.  And on top of the 10’s of thousands of jobs provided by these big manufacturers are 10’s of thousands of jobs in supporting industries.

What is strange is that remainers seem to rejoice if a company says they are moving and if that move is damaging then better it is in their eyes.

REMAINERS do not want to see these jobs go.  The BREXITEERS however don’t give a shit.  Read again the most optimistic of the very very few economists that think BREXIT is a good idea.  Professor Minford states quite clearly that in the event of a NO DEAL BREXIT wage inequality will increase and UK manufacturing will all but cease to exist.

What is strange is that remainers seem to rejoice if a company says they are moving and if that move is damaging then better it is in their eyes.

So again, it’s what you want.  The rest of us would like to keep our jobs and our wealth thanks.


Or as I am begining to feel, the BREXITEERS don't have a fucking clue what they want, but they sure as fuck know how to get it.

[fazersharp]

Because of our very slack labour laws and destruction of the unions?

So the reason these companies had come here is because of our slack labour laws and yet you site that after a brexit the labour laws will be slacker which will make the UK more attractive to companies, you seem to be using the same argument to cover everything just like labour has "spent" the reversing the cuts in capital gains tax 10 times over. 

[YamFazFan]

So why did they choose the UK over any other EU state in the first place.

The key thing for them was unrestricted single market access.  No more import restrictions and no more tariffs.  Other manufactures of course have chosen other EU countries.



I don’t know precisely why they choose the UK, but I certainly welcome it.  I do know we had skilled workers, and plenty of people in general looking for work.  I would guess there would be government incentives.  The stability of the pound would be attractive, and despite exporting much of the produce the strength of the pound, as a high proportion of the components are imported.  Further the guarantee of single union agreements was key.


What the Japanese did prove though without a doubt, was the problem with the old UK manufacturers was the management, not the workforce. 



But don’t think they are kidding when they say they will consider leaving if there is not a suitable BREXIT deal.  Leave they will.  And on top of the 10’s of thousands of jobs provided by these big manufacturers are 10’s of thousands of jobs in supporting industries.

What is strange is that remainers seem to rejoice if a company says they are moving and if that move is damaging then better it is in their eyes.

REMAINERS do not want to see these jobs go.  The BREXITEERS however don’t give a shit.  Read again the most optimistic of the very very few economists that think BREXIT is a good idea.  Professor Minford states quite clearly that in the event of a NO DEAL BREXIT wage inequality will increase and UK manufacturing will all but cease to exist.

What is strange is that remainers seem to rejoice if a company says they are moving and if that move is damaging then better it is in their eyes.

So again, it’s what you want.  The rest of us would like to keep our jobs and our wealth thanks.


Or as I am begining to feel, the BREXITEERS don't have a fucking clue what they want, but they sure as fuck know how to get it.

If you're unhappy with the result of the referendum, which obviously you are and that's your right, the only person/people to blame are those who gave us it in the first place.


We were offered a free and fair democratic vote. We took part, we voted. Your argument against the Leave voters is an argument against democracy.


If your case was as strong as you believe Remain would have walked it but they didn't did they.

[VNA]

So the reason these companies had come here is because of our slack labour laws and yet you site that after a brexit the labour laws will be slacker which will make the UK more attractive to companies,

Why don’t we re-introduce slavery?  That might attack a few investors.  I guess it’s a matter of how low you BREXITEERS want to go Fazersharp.


Thought the truth is as I explained, they came here for a multitude of reasons.  But if they do not maintain quota free and tarriff free access to the market, including continued free import of parts and labour they will pack up and manufactuer elsewhere.

[fazersharp]

So the reason these companies had come here is because of our slack labour laws and yet you site that after a brexit the labour laws will be slacker which will make the UK more attractive to companies,

Why don’t we re-introduce slavery?  That might attack a few investors.  I guess it’s a matter of how low you BREXITEERS want to go Fazersharp.

Thought the truth is as I explained, they came here for a multitude of reasons.  But if they do not maintain quota free and tarriff free access to the market, including continued free import of parts and labour they will pack up and manufactuer elsewhere.

The slack labour laws were never my argument - they were yours and I am pointing out that on one hand you (Mtread) say companies  have come here because of slack laws and then on the other you say that laws will be slacker after a brexit. Mtread was pointing out the companies leaving and I asked why they came in the first place and he said because of slack labour laws so if you maintain that labour laws will be slacker after brexit then proof that they will not be is that the companies are choosing to leave that first came here because of slack laws.   

[VNA]

The slack labour laws were never my argument - they were yours and I am pointing out that on one hand you

Not my arguement.  I'm a trade unionist.

[fazersharp]

But if they do not maintain quota free and tarriff free access to the market, including continued free import of parts and labour they will pack up and manufactuer elsewhere.

By free import of labour you mean CHEAP labour from poor countries who to them a low wage is a rich man's wage. That part of the EU is totally dysfunctional - in their quest to ever expand they have welcomed countries who are not financially ready. 

[YamFazFan]

So the reason these companies had come here is because of our slack labour laws and yet you site that after a brexit the labour laws will be slacker which will make the UK more attractive to companies,

Why don’t we re-introduce slavery?  That might attack a few investors.  I guess it’s a matter of how low you BREXITEERS want to go Fazersharp.

fazersharp didn't suggest, mention or advocate that at all obviously.


He was highlighting a flaw in mtreads argument.

[VNA]

If your case was as strong as you believe Remain would have walked it but they didn't did they.

Indeed, why did people ignore the facts and vote to LEAVE.  Beat the hell out of me.



This thread has been as frustrating as it has been interesting.  It’s run it’s course now.  Yourself, YamFazFan, fazershap and all the other BREXITEER foccers here, not one of you can come up with a good reason to leave the EU.  Not one reason to change the path we have been on for over 40 years.


Aside for reasons, none of you have come up with a real and substantial argument for leaving.  Nothing.


Which of course, as I have already said, what the fuck is wrong with the UK, or more to the point, what the fuck is wrong with the English. 



I had a long conversation with a friend in Wales about this.  We came up with the following;


The 20 year press project to undermine the EU.  All the lies, like the ban on bent bananas.....


People are dis-enfranchised.  It’s the low wage economy.  The millions working for people like Tim Martin, on the minimum wage, zero hour contracts – the full time workers claiming benefits.  Millions of people now being taken a loan of after decades neo liberal politics (ie Tory rule)


Then you combine that with the lack of trust and respect in our politicians – which can clearly be seen on this forum.  But why is that we don’t trust politicians?


Tony Blair.  Or should I say Tony Bliar.  Tony took us into wars on the basis of lies.  He sent our kids to fight and die in foreign lands on the back of his religious global capitalist dream – or whatever you want to call it.  But the key here is a PM who lied to parliament, and lied to the country in order to fight his insane wars.  Tony Blair is a cunt.



The global financial crash.  Remember Gordon Brown (the worst chancellor in British history and another cunt) – no more boom and bust.  Gordon adored Fred Goodwin and friends.  The people paid kings ransoms for their expertise – we had to pay em that money or they would leave the country we were told – then when these people crashed our whole banking system and threatened our whole economy – well what did Blair, Brown and their cunty friends do – they bailed them out, then asked us all to write the cheque.


The MP’s expenses scandal.


There’s more stuff to go into the mix.  But those are basics.


dis-enfranchised taken to war on a lie  the financial crash with the rich bailed out and us left to foot the bill.


I think that’s why people aren’t listening.  They don't care about facts beciase thye've been told too many lies.  They have had enougth of the experts as Gove summed up.  I’m not sure people are actually even listening to Jacob, Boris or Nigel.  They just wanna kick that ball.  People don’t care if it hurts.  Millions have nothing to lose anyway.  Why should they give a fuck?


That’s kinda how I see it.


So BREXIT here we come - thanks England.

[fazersharp]

The slack labour laws were never my argument - they were yours and I am pointing out that on one hand you

Not my arguement.  I'm a trade unionist.

Yes they were in your arguments against brexit

[VNA]

By free import of labour you mean CHEAP labour from poor countries who to them a low wage is a rich man's wage.

No in the case of Nissan, Toyota etc, it's the ability to move between plants and manufactuerers (suppliers).  This is generally at an engineering level.  It's also the ability to recruit engineers from the EU as a whole.

[VNA]

Yes they were in your arguments against brexit

No it's not an arguement I would make.  I am all for trade unions and labour rights.

[fazersharp]

what the fuck is wrong with the English. 
I had a long conversation with a friend in Wales about this.  We came up with the following;
It’s the low wage economy.  The millions working for people like Tim Martin, on the minimum wage,

Remember Gordon Brown (the worst chancellor in British history and another cunt) – no more boom and bust.  Gordon adored Fred Goodwin and friends.  The people paid kings ransoms for their expertise –

what the fuck is wrong with the English.

Racist remark

It’s the low wage economy.

Brought about by the import of cheap labour from eastern EU states. which you welcome

Gordon adored Fred Goodwin and friends.  The people paid kings ransoms for their expertise –

Brexiters have been telling you leavers not to believe the "experts" for ages, funny how you pick and choose which ones you want to belive.

[fazersharp]

Yes they were in your arguments against brexit

No it's not an arguement I would make.  I am all for trade unions and labour rights.

That's why is said they were in your arguments AGAINST brexit ------ one too many of the yellow poison me thinks, stick another log on your croft farm open fire and another ice in your glass.

[VNA]

That's why is said they were in your arguments AGAINST brexit ------ one too many of the yellow poison me thinks, stick another log on your croft farm open fire and another ice in your glass.

Stove actually.  Yes getting cold, more logs on!

Yes, yes, yes, silly me, of course.  The Tories will cancel numerous Labour laws, such as the working time directive etc etc, if we leave the EU.

 

[fazersharp]

That's why is said they were in your arguments AGAINST brexit ------ one too many of the yellow poison me thinks, stick another log on your croft farm open fire and another ice in your glass.

Stove actually.  Yes getting cold, more logs on!

Yes, yes, yes, silly me, of course.  The Tories will cancel numerous Labour laws, such as the working time directive etc etc, if we leave the EU.

I thought that France has even worse labour laws ? and yet you want to be closer to them and you want to harmonise our laws ever more with them by being in the EU. Who has said workers rights would be diminished by brexit. 
Wouldn't it be better for you and your trade union cause to be free of the EU and to be able to fully decide on our own laws/ legislation / workers rights that fully fits our needs. By remaining in the EU you are further away from getting what you want regarding workers rights I would of thought.

Hasn't the working time directive been agreed by the EU and we have to implement it ?. 

[YamFazFan]

Apparently there's neither the appetite nor anywhere near the numbers in Parliament to win a vote for a second referendum.


Looks like my prediction that they'd reverse the democratic decision is going to be incorrect. Thank goodness for that. I'll never have been so happy to be proved wrong :lol .


Hopefully with a few tweaks and a bit of cooperation from Brussels, May's deal will now get the approval of Parliament.


The Remainers to whom The EU is akin to a religous cult will be hoping and praying that the UK is totally destroyed economically in order to be be "proved right", but I reckon we'll be just fine .

[VNA]

I thought that France has even worse labour laws ? and yet you want to be closer to them and you want to harmonise our laws ever more with them by being in the EU. Who has said workers rights would be diminished by brexit. 

I am not expert on French Labour laws, but I would be very surprised if workers in France have even less rights than we have here in the UK.

Wouldn't it be better for you and your trade union cause to be free of the EU and to be able to fully decide on our own laws/ legislation / workers rights that fully fits our needs.

Our trade union cause.  Trade unions are for all.  Trade unions exist for the benefit of us all, including business.  The EU is the biggest single free trading market in the world.  It accounts for 25% of global GDP.  It’s on our door step.  We cannot afford to ignore it.  It’s pretty obvious that to have such a massive and open trade arrangement, without restriction and tariff, you have to then have common standards.  Trade Unionists are not by nature isolationist, we believe in rights for all, not just in the UK, not just across the EU, but ultimately common rights and standards across the globe. 

By remaining in the EU you are further away from getting what you want regarding workers rights I would of thought.

The dream of the Tory party is a zero hours low wage economy. 

Hasn't the working time directive been agreed by the EU and we have to implement it ?

We are the EU.  The policy was negotiated with and agreed by the UK along with all the other member states.  The EU is a democracy after all, and one which works on the principle of consensus.


The Tories will of course aim to scrap the working time directive all with all the other EU work place legislation.  Back in 2015 David Cameron tried to negotiate out of the working time directive.  Mr Cameron also tried to scrap laws granting agency workers the same pay and rights as full time employees.

[VNA]

hopefully with a few tweaks and a bit of cooperation from Brussels, May's deal will now get the approval of Parliament.

I wouldn’t think so.  Remember what May’s deal is.  It simply removes us politically from the EU, but leaves us trading as before as part of the single market.  Effectively the end of march is the date the UK loses it’s sovereignty.  We will have to abide by EU rules but have no say whatsoever in them.  As Fazersharp says, the EU will decide and we will have to implement.  We will no longer be the rule makers, we will simply become rule takers. 



This is a withdrawal agreement.  It allows a 2 year period in which to negotiate BREXIT.  Ie to negotiate our future relationship and trading terms with the EU.  It’s when the real fun starts.  This is just the warm up.


The backstop is there to hold us in a customs union of the negotiations fail, which of course they will.  The backstop is there to prevent a hard border being formed in Northern Ireland, and in doing so undermining the Good Friday Agreement, which could undermine peace in Ireland and the UK.


May’s deal will also most likely trigger a second Scottish Independence Referendum, Nicola Sturgeon will not be able to hold back the bulk of the SNP membership keen to rush into a second ballot.  So the UK will be left negotiating it’s exit from the EU whilst there is a second Scottish Referendum to decide the actual future of the United Kingdom.


May’s deal is a fucking mess.  We need to move rapidly to a settled position.  Not kick the ball down the road again.

[fazersharp]

The dream of the Tory party is a zero hours low wage economy. 

Hasn't the working time directive been agreed by the EU and we have to implement it ?

We are the EU. The policy was negotiated with and agreed by the UK along with all the other member states.  The EU is a democracy after all, and one which works on the principle of consensus.

The Tories will of course aim to scrap the working time directive all with all the other EU work place legislation.  Back in 2015 David Cameron tried to negotiate out of the working time directive. Mr Cameron also tried to scrap laws granting agency workers the same pay and rights as full time employees.
 

So by those two statements you have backed up what the brexiters have been saying all along about the EU. You say that  "The policy was negotiated with and agreed by the UK" but clearly the UK government did not fully agree with it but still we had to implement it ---- just like many of the other UK legislations that you like to point out were agreed by the UK when brexiteers say we dont like the EU legislation. Proof that we did not fully agree with it in your next sentence "Back in 2015 David Cameron tried to negotiate out of the working time directive." . Also brexiters have been saying that you can not negotiate with the EU as you have demonstrated.If you don't like the Tories then stop voting for them - I believe the phrase is

  The people get the government they deserve. 

So I would say that if you want change then its easier to vote for and change a single countries government than it is to change their "Excellencies" in the EU