Crash investigation outcomes.

[noggythenog]

I've mentioned this a couple of times within other posts but no luck yet.


We are supposed to all learn from mistakes...both our own and others and it is good general industry practice for an investigation board to file reports on an incident.....a list of factors and the root cause is identified although usually individuals are not named...then lessons learned are listed and how the incident could have been avoided.


So of all of the bad crashes in Wales last year involving bikes i don't recall ever hearing the outcomes.


The mainstream media are somewhat biased and always report a bike crash with the finger tilting towards the biker....even if they don't say that it is at least inferred with their word choice & exclusion of certain facts........if it is cars involved then it is just a road incident although if a motorbike is involved then a big emphasis is made of the motorcycle.


I've recently come across a map which shows all the crash's but it just briefly lists the vehicles involved and where on the map....that is useless!.


Is there an official government accident report website where we can all view the crashes and what and who was really at fault?.........this would be most useful...much of which is no doubt harrowing.....but bikers aren't always without blame and it would be useful learn from the mistakes of others and come out a better rider......we all hear stories and are constantly told you shouldn't do this this & this but to actually read where this has been proven and from an official and impartial source is of the most benefit.


I also just read that road deaths have jumped in Wales......but injuries are down.......so the silly slow speed stuff is maybe gotten away with via modern safety and technology in vehicles and protection.........but perhaps the faster incidents are indeed much faster than in the past.....& no amount of safety features are helping......more folk are ending up pan bread.


Any ideas?

[chaz]

Is it this you are looking at, I think you can get a report at a £1 a time but I dont know how detailed they are and it could be expensive if you wanted to look at loads?        www.crashmap.co.uk

[noggythenog]

Is it this you are looking at, I think you can get a report at a £1 a time but I dont know how detailed they are and it could be expensive if you wanted to look at loads?        www.crashmap.co.uk

That's a good start Chaz........but paying for it! :eek


I wonder i wonder whether that is just public information that has been compiled and centralised for ease of use.........perhaps it is for lawyers or whatever but either way that's harsh if we have to pay......it is in everyones interest if it is free and easily accessible.........all this preaching we hear about yet here we are possibly unable to analyse all of the crashes.

[darrsi]

The thing is Noggy, if you put 10 people in exactly the same scenario in a dangerous situation then some will take it in their stride and have it fully under control, foreseeing the imminent dangers well ahead, whereas others won't fair so well and will end up with a last gasp panicked reaction.
A good example of this is when i'm a passenger in a car, i literally can't stand it, as i see first hand what other peoples awareness skills are like.
I end up flinching all the time and try my hardest to resist pointing dangers out to the driver so as not to sound rude.
It seems like my observational skills can be anything up to 10 seconds ahead of the average car driver who's never sat on a motorbike before, and to be truthful i would rather sit in the back with a seatbelt on and not watch what's happening rather than having my foot pressed hard on the floor all the time and watching all around me like a hawk, which most car drivers simply do not do.
They don't appear to give a monkeys if a car door is about to be opened in front of them, or the wet leaves on the manhole cover, or the sudden oil slick on the road which has appeared from nowhere because it's just rained for the first time in a week, simply because it doesn't really affect them like it would when you're on your bike.
So as far as crash statistics are concerned then i really think that each one is totally unique depending on the individuals biking skill, knowledge and more importantly experience, which also applies to the driver/rider of the other vehicle if there is one involved.
Then you have the obvious things to throw into the equation, like weather conditions and visibility, the condition of your bike (tyres, brakes, etc), YOUR visibility, speed, junctions, etc. Then there's always the possible factor that someone was simply riding or driving like a complete and utter arsehole, or on their phone, adjusting the radio, shouting at their kids in the back seat, etc!
Unless you're really unlucky and get randomly hit for whatever reason, then it does all boil down to the individual bike riders judgement and experience, in my opinion anyway, so i don't reckon you'll really gain too much info by looking at statistics as a whole to be honest.
A video of an incident however can speak a thousand words, then you can look and decide for yourself who was in the right or wrong and how things could've perhaps been done a bit differently to avoid a collision or an accident. 

[Skippernick]

Dont' agree Darrsi theres always something to learn form other incidents.


The Maritime Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) and Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) do exactly what Noggy is asking, they investigate and then publish recommendations for other to read and learn by, although they choose which accidents to publish but again for the benefit of others.


The only thing being they have less to investigate. :rolleyes

[noggythenog]

Darrssi you have some good points i.e. that every rider is different but i think we all have common traits when it comes to risk and taking chances......the human factor....we all have good and bad days and everyone does something eventually that they think to themselves "why did i do that"


If there was any background info such as "kev was feeling tired when he left the house that day".....or "brian thought that his new high viz jacket would mean people would see him" or "Pete wrongly thought his blue bike was fast"  :b [size=78%]type stuff then that would be useful for learning the easy traps not to fall into.....especially for new riders who haven't built up their skills yet.[/size]


Also handy would be stuff like "steve was with a bunch of mates much faster than him and he was out of his comfort zone trying to keep up".....or "dave was sticking his leg out to indicate to his mates that the road ahead was clear.....but this time his leg was out because of bad cramp & there was a camper van coming the other way"....ok a little far fetched but theres just thousands of combinations of things that can go wrong.


I agree that every rider starts off on a different level.......in the H&S world then this would be similar to the inherent risk...also similar is that the basic act of riding a motorbike is inherently dangerous even if you apply every piece of safety kit, training & mind set.......you cant eliminate this risk......unless you just don't go out...but the rest you can diminish with the correct knowledge....much of this knowledge we arent born with.....we learn it from others...from forums...& training....but i just think that these reports would be another medium to learn from.


1 reported accident i think was from the start of this season in Wales where there were 2 groups of bikes that happened to be going opposite directions on some bad bends & there was a car involved which it looks like 1 group was passing before it met the other group...a bloke died & the rest were scattered around the place......it really intrigued me & i want to know the particulars of exactly what went wrong instead of guessing.....but looking on google brings up nothing except the original news story in the local paper.


Is there an official office that i could get a hold of because I'm seriously considering getting in touch & putting forward some suggestions.......perhaps MAG would know but i'm not really interested in joining them but perhaps they could advise none the less.

[darrsi]

Darrssi you have some good points i.e. that every rider is different but i think we all have common traits when it comes to risk and taking chances......the human factor....we all have good and bad days and everyone does something eventually that they think to themselves "why did i do that"


If there was any background info such as "kev was feeling tired when he left the house that day".....or "brian thought that his new high viz jacket would mean people would see him" or "Pete wrongly thought his blue bike was fast"  :b [size=78%]type stuff then that would be useful for learning the easy traps not to fall into.....especially for new riders who haven't built up their skills yet.[/size]


Also handy would be stuff like "steve was with a bunch of mates much faster than him and he was out of his comfort zone trying to keep up".....or "dave was sticking his leg out to indicate to his mates that the road ahead was clear.....but this time his leg was out because of bad cramp & there was a camper van coming the other way"....ok a little far fetched but theres just thousands of combinations of things that can go wrong.


I agree that every rider starts off on a different level.......in the H&S world then this would be similar to the inherent risk...also similar is that the basic act of riding a motorbike is inherently dangerous even if you apply every piece of safety kit, training & mind set.......you cant eliminate this risk......unless you just don't go out...but the rest you can diminish with the correct knowledge....much of this knowledge we arent born with.....we learn it from others...from forums...& training....but i just think that these reports would be another medium to learn from.


1 reported accident i think was from the start of this season in Wales where there were 2 groups of bikes that happened to be going opposite directions on some bad bends & there was a car involved which it looks like 1 group was passing before it met the other group...a bloke died & the rest were scattered around the place......it really intrigued me & i want to know the particulars of exactly what went wrong instead of guessing.....but looking on google brings up nothing except the original news story in the local paper.


Is there an official office that i could get a hold of because I'm seriously considering getting in touch & putting forward some suggestions.......perhaps MAG would know but i'm not really interested in joining them but perhaps they could advise none the less.

The only thing is Noggy, is that when insurance is involved, the background info you've suggested would never really get mentioned.
People will naturally bend the truth to work in their favour as well.


Can you imagine a written report that informed your insurance firm you felt really tired when you got on your bike the day you had an accident?
They'd make mincemeat out of you.
Nobody in their right mind would incriminate themselves in that way so i can't really imagine you would ever see that in a report, unless it was a fatal incident and forensics have given their own opinion of events after summing up the evidence presented to them.
A lot of the time the only people who will ever know what really happened in an incident will be the people involved, and i'd guess it's quite rare these days for anyone to hold their hands up and admit total blame, because you can hire a shameless lawyer to try and get you out of it.


Also, a persons frame of mind or even general personality can affect the way you ride on any given day as well, regardless of skill or experience.
If you've just had a bereavement in the family, or you're on the way home from losing your job, or you are simply an aggressive/angry road rage type rider then that all boils down to individuality again.


I was about to mention what you said about us all doing something daft, or taken that bit of risk a tad too far, then in hindsight thought "What an idiot, why did i do that?" but as we all know it won't be the last time either. 

[darrsi]

Here's a couple of mistakes to learn from.


Firstly, don't ride through red lights........it hurts at the very least.


http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-n...ssia-video

[noggythenog]

Ive often thought that if i hit a car id rather go flying & use up some of that crash energy.....but in reality you dont fly far before you hit something hard :wall  Boom!


Anyway i see some of your points about the specifics..........we live in a blame culture & so it's unlikely that we get much real honesty except among friends & behind closed doors.


But at the very least it would be good to hear the basics about a crash & a follow up bit of news coverage............for example does anyone actually categorically what happened in that Crash in Wales that i described earlier with the 2 opposite travelling biker groups & the vauxhall zafira i think it was?????

[nick crisp]

You can have what appears to be a frightening accident and come out of it with not a scratch. Or you could come off at 20mph and get killed. It's just the way the dice falls. Not worth thinking too hard about as long as you've satisfied yourself that you've taken all the precautions for your peace of mind that you can practically take.

I think you're getting obsessed with that one crash Noggy. Sure, it'd be interesting to know what happened in that one case, unusual as it seems to be. But we know pretty much the causes of accidents generally, don't we? Idiot drivers, rider error, unexpected diesel/slippery patch, poor road surface, poor obs etc. If you think too hard about it, it's likely to put you off ever going on the road in/on any kind of vehicle.

Better to concentrate on what you can do to avoid an accident. If you're that worried, why not do some advanced training?