(23-10-13, 06:46 PM)CRH link Wrote: [quote author=BorisTheThird link=topic=10406.msg108899#msg108899 date=1382548844]
stuck the battery back in
bike off - 12.2v
when the bike was started it started about the same and dropped as the rpm increased.
this implies the charging is not working, stator tested correctly - going to try fitting a friend's rectifier tomorrow.
not going to try taking more readings tonight neighbours are getting home and my exhaust is a bit holey.
cheers peeps
....if it does turn out your rectifier is goosed i have a spare i will let you have cheap?...pm me if you need it ..clive.
[/quote]
(23-10-13, 06:55 PM)His Dudeness link Wrote: Sorry to hear that. You should come back. There's some great biking roads here
....yes may do one day?....she came from a place called templmore near i think it was tipperary? do you know it?...think it was called that?..it was nearly 30yr ago :rolleyes
(23-10-13, 03:47 PM)CRH link Wrote: ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
Thanks for the vote of confidence Foccers Under no circumstances should you remove the battery with the engines running on alternator based systems, especially on bikes (or cars) with ECUs and Electronic Regulators. :eek The systems are not designed to run without the battery. The fazer has an ECU and an electronic rectifier/regulator which is normally called the Regulator. Fazer Alternators are 3 phase Alternating Current (AC) devices and the AC is converted by the Rectifier to direct current (DC) and the Regulator controls the DC output based on the battery condition and electrical load.You will most likely fry the Regulator and after frying that you are likely to fry the ECU and then the Alternator. Lucky for you the bike stopped and the worst you may have done is fry the Rectifier/Regulator unless you have a faulty alternator, in which case you are lucky.Disconnect the plug from the regulator and the resistance between the white wire connectors should be between 0.36 to 0.44 Ohms. (Don't know where you got you info. from) :thumbdown There should be no reading from the white wire connectors to the frame (earth). If the resistance is higher the output will be lower and if there is continuity to earth output will be lower again.Your reading is on the high side but could be from a bad connection between the meter and the connectors.The resistance readings on their own are not enough to prove the alternator is good. You could have insulation break down when under load or when hot. Set the meter to AC and with everything connected start the bike and check the voltage between the white wires; (push the meter leads (carefully) into the back of the plug) it should read around 18 to 20 volts AC. With the engine running at tick over the voltage across the battery should read over 12v and go up to an absolute maximum of 14.4 when the engine is revved over 5000 revs. If the voltage does not increase and you have 19 to 20v AC from the alternator then the regulator is faulty.
(23-10-13, 07:32 PM)69oldskool link Wrote: [quote author=CRH link=topic=10406.msg108857#msg108857 date=1382539641]
ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
[/quote]
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
(23-10-13, 07:58 PM)BorisTheThird link Wrote: [quote author=69oldskool link=topic=10406.msg108933#msg108933 date=1382553161]
[quote author=CRH link=topic=10406.msg108857#msg108857 date=1382539641]
ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
[/quote]
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
[/quote]....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
(23-10-13, 08:06 PM)CRH link Wrote: [quote author=BorisTheThird link=topic=10406.msg108944#msg108944 date=1382554737]
[quote author=69oldskool link=topic=10406.msg108933#msg108933 date=1382553161]
[quote author=CRH link=topic=10406.msg108857#msg108857 date=1382539641]
ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
[/quote]
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
[/quote]....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
[/quote]
Yes,as mine was kinda 'The Sun' readers version. :lol
(23-10-13, 08:17 PM)69oldskool link Wrote: [quote author=CRH link=topic=10406.msg108947#msg108947 date=1382555194]
[quote author=BorisTheThird link=topic=10406.msg108944#msg108944 date=1382554737]
[quote author=69oldskool link=topic=10406.msg108933#msg108933 date=1382553161]
[quote author=CRH link=topic=10406.msg108857#msg108857 date=1382539641]
ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
[/quote]
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
[/quote]....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
[/quote]
Yes,as mine was kinda 'The Sun' readers version. :lol
[/quote]...soz old school ment you too? .....
A serious misunderstanding of alternator based charging systems here. :wall The battery and the load is what the regulator looks at to determine the charging rate. The battery is part of the charging circuit. Take the battery out and the regulator will increase its output trying to charge a non existent battery which will fry the regulator and if it short circuits internally it will put 20 volts AC out to the load and fry the ECU and then fry the Alternator insulation.
Ignore the warnings as your peril :moon
(23-10-13, 07:46 PM)unfazed link Wrote: [size=1em]Thanks for the vote of confidence Foccers [/size]
[size=1em]Under no circumstances should you remove the battery with the engines running on alternator based systems, especially on bikes (or cars) with ECUs and Electronic Regulators. :eek The systems are not designed to run without the battery. The fazer has an ECU and an electronic rectifier/regulator which is normally called the Regulator. [/size][size=1em]Fazer Alternators are 3 phase Alternating Current (AC) devices and the AC is converted by the Rectifier to direct current (DC) and the Regulator controls the DC output based on the battery condition and electrical load.[/size][size=1em]You will most likely fry the Regulator and after frying that you are likely to fry the ECU and then the Alternator. Lucky for you the bike stopped and the worst you may have done is fry the Rectifier/Regulator unless you have a faulty alternator, in which case you are lucky.[/size][size=1em]Disconnect the plug from the regulator and the resistance between the white wire connectors should be between 0.36 to 0.44 Ohms. (Don't know where you got you info. from) :thumbdown There should be no reading from the white wire connectors to the frame (earth). If the resistance is higher the output will be lower and if there is continuity to earth output will be lower again.[/size][size=1em]Your reading is on the high side but could be from a bad connection between the meter and the connectors.[/size][size=1em]The resistance readings on their own are not enough to prove the alternator is good. You could have insulation break down when under load or when hot. Set the meter to AC and with everything connected start the bike and check the voltage between the white wires; (push the meter leads (carefully) into the back of the plug) it should read around 18 to 20 volts AC. [/size][size=1em]With the engine running at tick over the voltage across the battery should read over 12v and go up to an absolute maximum of 14.4 when the engine is revved over 5000 revs. If the voltage does not increase and you have 19 to 20v AC from the alternator then the regulator is faulty.[/size]
couple of things, do you know how the rectifier works, i was expecting just a simple bridge rectifier, capacitor and a voltage regulator. but from what you say its more involved.
also, would a flat battery or blown main fuse no cause the same issue?
ive tested the voltege output from the stator, got about 90v (which is what someone on another forum says i should be expecting)
No,Not a bridge rectifier~
reg/rectifier is a 3 phase rectifier coupled with a voltage regulator circuit all in one unit. think they're a bit more technical than the used to be ~Unfazed?
The forum is very educational, electrical principles part z.
Ok onward, I'm listening not falling asleep after being to pub at dinner as I did in my college days lol
Andy
(23-10-13, 08:41 PM)69oldskool link Wrote: No,Not a bridge rectifier~
reg/rectifier is a 3 phase rectifier coupled with a voltage regulator circuit all in one unit. think they're a bit more technical than the used to be ~Unfazed?
(23-10-13, 02:48 PM)BorisTheThird link Wrote: My bikes broken [img alt=:cry2:]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/img]
....
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says & he should know i guess ) http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=down...iew;down=8
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
23-10-13, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-13, 09:43 PM by unfazed.)
Usually 18 to 20 v AC is at tickover and is could be as low as 17 and as high as 25 depending on the tickover speed. The AC voltage levels increase dramatically as the revs increase, it could increase to 100 v AC +, which is why I would not recommend testing it higher than say 2000 revs unless you have the proper meter with the proper insulation ratings. I don't know what the Fazer ones go to as I never at any reason to try.
The Alternator is a 3 phase unit and requires 6 diodes to convert it to DC. The reason 3 phase is used is that it gives a smother DC output before the addition of capicators and maybe coils to smooth it to a clean DC. See first Picture.
The regulation can contain some complex electronics to control the regulation of the voltage under various load condition. The second picture is an example of one of the newer type Japanese rectifier/regulator. A bit more involved than the old single phases bridge rectifier circuit
In answer to the question, yes a blown main fuse can cause the same problem.
A flat battery would have the same effect, but not as quickly as a blown fuse or disconnected battery. That is the reason why you should change a battery that goes flat regularly as it puts more load on the regulator.
(23-10-13, 09:30 PM)69oldskool link Wrote: [quote author=BorisTheThird link=topic=10406.msg108848#msg108848 date=1382536081]
My bikes broken [img alt=:cry2:]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/img]
....
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says & he should know i guess ) http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=down...iew;down=8
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
[/quote]
Thanks, not trying to be annoying, just trying to understand how things work (i cant fix the bike till tomorrow now so m stuck inside on the pc )
..clive.
![[Image: mg%5D]](http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/diagram.jpg%5B/mg%5D)
& he should know i guess 
)