always hard to start (she breathes fire and demands miles as a sacrifice)solved

[darrsi]

2nd gear

[AdieR]

"The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount and if it isn't 100% they won't work" - not quite.

Thumbing that starter button draws a significant current from the battery (far more than people realise usually), which is then recharged when the bike is running (but requires a long enough run to recharge the power drawn), and battery voltage will drop while that button is pressed.

The spark plugs use a high voltage to jump the gap between electrodes, and not necessarily a high current. If spark-plugs took a massive power draw, you'd need one hell of a big battery / alternator to cope (bearing in mind that the starter runs for a few seconds, and your spark plugs are running all the time).

The '02 bikes may not have a breather to kink, but it'll still have a fuel feed line from the tank which may (or may not) be trapped / kinked.

I'm assuming it runs ok once started? Is it modified at all?

[Lawrence]

"The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount and if it isn't 100% they won't work" - not quite.

Thumbing that starter button draws a significant current from the battery (far more than people realise usually), which is then recharged when the bike is running (but requires a long enough run to recharge the power drawn), and battery voltage will drop while that button is pressed.

Which is why you can't run the starter for too long before the battery starts to die.

The fact that it cranks and cranks and then just starts up still makes me think it's electrical.  If it were fuel it wouldn't backfire or smoke, plus it should at least try to fire from the fuel that's left in the carbs.

Next time it fails to start try flicking the killswitch/key on/off a few times and try starting again.

[Fazerider]

The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount...

Yes, you've got that the wrong way round. The CDI will only take an amp or so, the starter motor is rated at 700W and will typically draw 70A allowing for voltage drop.
If you suspect weak sparks as the cause of your starting problems it's easy enough to pull a plug cap off and either stick a spare plug or screwdriver in the cap and let the spark jump to an engine fin (not the cam cover... that's insulated). It should manage 5 to 7mm. Don't try to make it jump further than that, the spark is what limits the voltage... too large a gap can cause coil insulation breakdown.

[darrsi]

Just a daft one, but if the tank was lifted to do soldering the majority of people would turn the fuel tap off.
It has been switched back on fully hasn't it?

Although i s'pose the fuel pump would try and compensate and tick like crazy?  :rolleyes

[carrier]

Fazerrrider, Lawrence, Adier - Let me rephrase that, the starter motor takes quite a big of power, but even if the battery is dying it will crank... slower and without the same entusiasm, but it will turn over. The sparks on the other hand, if not enough amperage goes through the transformer to turn it into big ass voltage, it does nothing... right?


Darrsi - Yeah I thought of that... but it was on, I turned it off and on for good measure.

[Fazerider]

No, in a dying battery situation the sparks should still be good... the CDI can increase the dwell time to compensate.
It's more likely that the first thing you'd notice is the starter relay clacking on and off because the battery voltage sinks so low when it sees the starter motor that it can no longer hold the relay closed then, once the relay's open, the voltage rises back high enough to activate it.

[carrier]

So then it's more than likely to be a lack of fuel problem?

[Dead Eye]

One quick thought, could you potentially get a video of trying to start the bike? Might allow some of us helpful foccers to hear what's going on as well - may well help to prove or disprove some of the theories that are in play at current

[Ebme Geek]

Sparks, fuel, compression are the basics
I think it's got lost somewhere, check the easiest first, are there sparks while it wont run, either take a plug out, or use a spare one, has not got to be the right type, put it in the cap and hold it against the top fin on the side of the cylinder (not the cam cover, it's rubber mounted).
You will know where better to look then

[carrier]

I'll try to post a video this weekend.

The plot so far. The fuel tap is definitely letting fuel in, the battery is...battering, the spark plugs..might not be sparking. Though I didn't place it near any ground. I thought I would see it spark without that...no?

Once again thanks for all the help.

Edit...just realised I didn't ground the sparkplug correctly, will do again tomorrow

[Orangegrump]

Check your ignition coils.

[clayt74]

the redline problem that you are also having would suggest its more than just a starting problem but also a problem keeping it running.
Now then just to throw another thought into the mix, i would check and probably replace your starter circuit cut off relay (not the starter relay)
that relay contains several diodes that could eaisly have been blown when your bike got fried!!! and one of those diodes being faulty could stop the ignitor unit from operating correctly but still allowing the starter motor to operate.

only my thoughts but good luck

[carrier]

OK so

The fuel tap is fuelling
The high tension coil is coiling
The pickup coil is picking up
The spark plugs are still not sparking
The ignition main switch is switching

I'm going to blame the ignition control unit so I ordered another one and will soon see. Any body else have any suggestions?

The ignition coil is the same as the hit coils right?

Clayt74 not sure where this starter circuit cutoff relay is...where is it?

[carrier]

hey, could anyone take a look at their CDI/ignistion control unit and see if one of their wires is snipped? Mine has a green wire that is cut off???

according to the wiring diagram there isn't a green wire at all

[clayt74]

Hi carrier, the starter cut off circuit relay, is on the lefthand side of the bike just behind the battery, its the larger of the 2 relays.
as for the green wire on the ignition unit, mine is connected, but as you say im not sure where it connects too?
[smg id=756 type=preview align=center caption="ignition unit"]

[clayt74]

on the wiring schematic its the wire shown as light green LG which from what i can see enables the starter motor as long as its in neutral or the side stand is up.
doesnt seem to be related to your problem, but i think should definately be connected.

good luck mate

[carrier]

on the wiring schematic its the wire shown as light green LG which from what i can see enables the starter motor as long as its in neutral or the side stand is up.
doesnt seem to be related to your problem, but i think should definately be connected.

good luck mate

Thanks!


But the starter circuit...doesn't that take care of the starter motor, which is working fine, or does it affect spark aswell? But hey I might just switch it out anyway. Thanks again

[clayt74]

I would definitely get the light green wire spliced back together, it connects from the safety cut off relay so could be preventing the ignition unit exciting the coils properly.  Hence no spark.
Good luck

[carrier]

It was not the ignition control unit/cdi/ecu

Next the starter cut off relay

I took a pic of my CSI and doesn't look the same as clayts