23-06-19, 12:09 PM
(This post was last modified: 23-06-19, 12:12 PM by Millietant.)
Struggling with the links VNA, but I agree with your comments about hard braking, letting the brakes go and flinging a bike on its side (and rough riding like that is never good on the street) - again its all about context - hard braking, controlled (but quick) release of the brakes and controlled turn-ins are all about smoothness.
My first CSS class had a session where we were instructed/taught to ride the bikes round the track without any brakes at all - that drove your focus on looking ahead and choosing turn in points. The difference in our lap times after a few goes at this was phenomenal. Smoothness in every aspect of riding is key to controlling traction.
Your description of what you practice as trail-braking is something that I interpret as totally different to what was shown in Dude's video - what you describe is great, as in smoothly releasing the brakes as you turn in.
CSS does teach that proper "trail-braking" is a great tool in certain circumstances, but for road riding and under the circumstances Steve described (i.e. Running wide in corners), trail braking, which as you mentioned earlier makes the bike want to stand up and run wider, would seem to be the exact opposite of what Steve needs to be doing.
As I said, I've been taught many times to get my braking effectively done before the corner and to minimise actions that would upset the suspension and tyres whilst leaned over mid-corner. In racing terms, I suppose the mantra of "to finish first, first you have to finish" is what underpinned this and teaching something that would make bikes run wide, to novices like me, would likely have resulted in lots of crashes. However, once you've mastered the basics then maybe it's time to start exploring the limits.
From what you've described of the way you corner and ride (which I agree with), I think it also shows that "trail-braking" means different things to different people, some interpret this as braking all the way from turn-in to the apex, which it seems is different to what you and I practice, which is why I would advise Steve to get face to face professional instruction, rather than taking advice from us amateurs on forums where context is easily missed or misinterpreted. Asking questions of the instructors in person is the best way to learn in my opinion.
23-06-19, 05:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 23-06-19, 05:38 PM by noggythenog.)
This thread is really good, even if it is pants & we talk nonsense because through that comes so much more knowledge from others. I regret my mention of ships now but there was context in my speed loss through a corner from a small bit of roadcraft i did on 4 wheels.
Despite all of that i am a firm believer in some of the other principles & especially having the suspension neutral before turning.....i personally dont believe in the front suspension having to be dug in to corner well as I think both front & rear needs equal traction.....on a really long corner mid way round if you have loaded up the front purposely surely mid corner this has now returned to neutral but it doesnt suddenly break away into non traction.
If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner then i've never dared try it as i am so uncomfortable on my right foot on the bikes i have owned that i cannot comfortably hold my foot near the brake pedal never mind using it mid corner at a split seconds notice with finesse......also i feel that to do too many things in a situation overloads the brain and we cannot multi task, something will give & i think that the whole looking where you want to go not only helps the bike round but also psychologically commits the brain to success and commitment & i would say to use that instead of sharing it with braking.
I am in awe following trail brakers as i just cant do it but i also feel that they are already planning on trail braking most of the time before the situation requires it....almost like drifters kicking the back end out on cars......i just think that it is a style of riding rather than an emergency thing & i suppose with riding mostly being enjoyable then if thats what they enjoy.....why not......just not my style.....as i say i cant even get comfortable on a rear brake...we are all different.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike
Sorry Millietant, I used to be able to post a youtube link nae bother. Cannae get it to work at all now.
I have to say I don’t really think how I brake and corner.
For me applying the brakes mid corner is cos something bad is gonna happen if I don’t. Always with braking, as you know, and even with emergency braking you need to apply force progressively.
I tried to think about what I was doing when I was out today. And yup I trail brake all over the shop. I’m not thinking about it, I’m doing it because it feels right and maximised stability and grip.
But if I’m braking mid corner it’s cos I’ve focced up and I don’t think I’ll make the turn.
Quote:If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner.
I check the rear brake before an MOT just to make sure it’s still working.  Some times its handy for holding the bike on a steep hill.
The rear brake just isn’t something I use. I can’t see how it would help cornering.
Like I said before, braking mid corner - for me - is cos I’ve focced up big time or something weird is happening right in front of me. Front brake only and you are going to have to push really hard on the bar to keep the bike down whilst hoping it doesn’t brake away from you. Not nice and to be avoided at all costs.
(22-06-19, 10:10 PM)VNA link Wrote: I agree with the Dude. I think it’s part of normal cornering. Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure. By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.
Err, no, the point is the suspension is *supposed* to be unloaded as you go into the turn!
If you go into a bend with the suspension loaded, it's got nowhere to go if you hit a bump which could, in the worst case, cause the front to lose contact with the road surface.
With the suspension unloaded, you have a longer wheel-base and the forks can compress when needed, which gives you more grip and stability.
What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.
With trail braking you control the front suspension letting it unload gradually until it balances with the cornering load.
Trail braking is the smooth way to transition from braking to turning in order to maximise grip control and stability.
(23-06-19, 10:58 PM)VNA link Wrote: What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.
That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.
That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.
Quote:That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.
That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.
I've never riden on the track. It's what I've leaned myself from years of riding.
And it's just simply a better way of riding. Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?
(24-06-19, 06:12 PM)VNA link Wrote: Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?
If you were doing that, I wouldn't be arguing with you. But it's your life and your choice.
This thread is driving me round the bend :lol
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.
(25-06-19, 12:15 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: This thread is driving me round the bend :lol
Hey at least it motorcycle related and nobody's getting threatened.... yet ??
Quote:This thread is driving me round the bend [img alt=:lol]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/img]
It's certainly had it's twists and turns :rolleyes
25-06-19, 06:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 25-06-19, 10:03 PM by Steve3351.)
JANEY MAC...!!!! clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!! :lol :rollin :rolleyes ....
(14-06-19, 09:35 PM)mickvp link Wrote: Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more ?
Or a heavy foccer and don't need to lean so far 
Women have chocolate men have bikes.....
including ones who like chocolate....
(15-06-19, 12:32 AM)Grahamm link Wrote: [quote author=Steve3351 link=topic=25373.msg299360#msg299360 date=1560549471]
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".
Quote:whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...
Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea.
Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.
Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.
Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/docume...%20res.pdf
[/quote]
Trail braking is not a BAD idea if done correctly..... and trail braking doesn't replace counter steering.
Women have chocolate men have bikes.....
including ones who like chocolate....
Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"
Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only :lol :lol :lol
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.
(26-06-19, 11:30 PM)Frosties link Wrote: Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"
Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only :lol :lol :lol
you've got to have a level playing field,everyone must be on Honda Cubs, std, no tuning or slicks, quick shifters,anti wheely,etc.
never look down on anyone unless you're helping them up.
(25-06-19, 06:35 PM)Steve3351 link Wrote: JANEY MAC...!!!! clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!! :lol :rollin :rolleyes ....
I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do it your way Steve, but if you really do want to ride properly-fast, get some advice from the professionals (not us lot) - unless you're a natural riding god already, you'll be amazed by how much quicker you will actually ride.
It's possible (nay....its undeniable) that making SMOOTH inputs (not slow inputs) is the way all the fastest riders do it - if you do a lap of Donnington/Silverstone on the back of either Ron or Leon Haslam, you'll be amazed at how smoothly they ride and how fooking fast they go with lean angles and corner speeds people like us can only imagine - and all the while they're reading MCN and riding with only one hand on the bars :lol :lol
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