Intermittent Starter Button Weirdness - Video included

[scb]

Hello,


I've only had my little 1999 FZS600 for a few weeks so I'm still getting used to her.


It seems to have an odd gremlin to do with starter, but it doesn't show up all the time. It may be worth mentioning it has a Datatool Duo installed, a type of immobiliser.


So here's what happens:

• I disarm the Datatool
  
• I put the key in the ignition and turn it to on - all the dash lights come up correctly, all lights around the bike work fine.
  
• Kill switch isn't on and the side stand is down.
  
• I'll depress the starter button and there is no response from the bike at all, no clicking, no noise, no starter turning, and crucially the oil light on the dashboard doesn't appear.
  
• No matter how long or how many times I press the button, it will be unresponsive.
  
• I'll turn the ignition off and wait a few minutes and then try again and the starter motor will turn straight away without hesitation and the oil light on dashboard appears while this is all happening.
  

I've noticed the following:

• The bike has always started straight away from cold - this intermittent issue has appeared so far when the bike is warm.
  
• The previous owner mentioned something about sometimes needing to wait for the fuel pump to prime before starting when the bike hasn't been used for long periods, but I don't think this will apply when the bike is warm.
  
• Normally when the engine is running and you press the starter button, you can hear it spin, lights dim and the oil light comes on. Today on the way to work I pressed the button and it didn't do that. This was my indication the problem was showing itself. Sure enough, I got the the bike to work and turned the engine off, and the starter button didn't work. After waiting a few minutes it started working again.
  

So it seems the starter motor itself works fine, and the button also appears to work just fine so it's probably not the contacts.

Would a faulty starter relay show a problem like this? Has anyone else had a similar problem?
I do worry because the day might come when it doesn't restart at all :'( so need to address this issue now.

Do you have any ideas? Thank you.

[bikemad]

Sounds like the immobiliser could be playing up 1st thing I did was get rid of the 16 year old alarm off my recent purchase, as had one on my 1st fazer a few years ago went tits up & was lucky it was a simple job to remove I remember happily bashing my large hammer onto it in joy ?
Some are wired directly into loom & same color wires easier to change that than faf about too much lol

[darrsi]

Have you tried starting it with the side stand up?

[misterjayb1]

Yup first port of call for me too would be to dispose of the alarm in the bin. As said above it can be a mare of a job depending who has fitted it.. I did google datatool problems and seems lots are by-passing the alarm within the actual control box itself and leaving everything in situ. btw mine turned out not to be alarm after all and was a fault at the red kill switch.. Still glad to get rid of the faff and associated issues with bike alarms 

[scb]

Thanks guys there's some good advice here re: the immobiliser - it would never be my choice to fit one. Unfortunately it's probably outside my skill level to remove the immobiliser, especially as I don't know for sure if that's the issue.

So yes, I have tried starting sitting on the bike when it's playing up with the side stand up and down and it makes no odds.

You mentioned your kill switch playing up. If mine were playing up too, surely that would just stop the bike from catching rather than stopping the starter motor from spinning and not showing the oil light when the starter button is pressed? I'll have to experiment when it is working to see what's normal.

Is there any other trouble shooting I could do? I'll record a video of the fault to see if it jogs anyone's memory about something similar that's happened to them.

I'm certain it's not the battery - the voltage is good and I've had it on the tender.

[bikemad]

Been an old bike could be a dirty contact within the electrics or switches pop the tank off the plastic box with all wiring inside unplug & replug everything spraying a cleaning agent inside.
But you might find its a switch that needs to be dismantled & cleaned be careful cos they have springs & ball bearings in some !

[Dave48]

As bikemad suggests-before you start ripping out wires/bypassing alarm just try some contact cleaner spray using plastic straw attachment inside the switchgear.
Doesnt take much build up of dirt/damp/corrosion to "insulate"internal contacts. Next try starting bike with side stand up. There is a contact switch that gets covered in muck etc. Other microswitch is operated by clutch lever, and prevents bike starting in gear unless clutch lever pulled in.

[scb]

Thank you all so much for the tips and lines of enquiry.


Something else has happened and I have captured it on camera, will you all please take a look?

1. Bike is running
   
2. In neutral
   
3. Starter button is playing up so pressing it does nothing
   
4. I then noticed if I rev the bike a little THEN press the button, it works!
   
5. I can consistently reproduce this revving to fix feature.
   
6. If the bike is not running, turning the throttle doesn't help to get it starting again.
   
7. WTF?
   

Does this mean it's likely to be something really loose? I just can't work the logic through in my mind as to why this might be happening.

I had a look at the service history, the previous owner had a garage fault find an 'intermittent starting' issue in April 2015 (500 miles ago, he only did that much until he sold it to me). I then bought over a year later in September 2016 and he'd barely used the bike. The garage changed the starter relay.

Could it by the starter relay has gone again? I could buy one off eBay for a mere £10 brand new if that's likely to be the issue?? I'm now thinking battery again but it otherwise seems fine though.

! No longer available

The video is WEIRD.

[Frosties]

My thoughts would still be to remove the immobiliser. From your 1st post I'd say the immobiliser is old, tired and needs a wake up before allowing you to start the bike. Watching the video, all you are doing is temporarily increasing the voltage of the bike's electrical circuit from say 12.5vDC to around 14vDC which may be enough to give the tired immobiliser's electronics another kick up the arse. Get shot of the immobiliser fella  :thumbup

[scb]

You're probably quite right! I'm not really sure why sometimes the fault shows and others not though.

I'll have a look to see what's involved in a bypass. I'll do what the others say first though and clean the relay and battery contacts, just incase.

[Frosties]

This may help if the contact cleaning doesn't work


http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=13115.0

[scb]

Thank you I appreciate that I think there is a good chance the bike was factory fitted or at least selected as an option to have the Datatool Duo installed by the first owner, which looks like it'll be easier to bypass. I think I can do this!


When I got the bike a few weeks ago, the immobiliser LED at the rear of the bike used to flash different colours depending on what mode it was in - now it doesn't flash at all, but it is still working and the beep still sounds. I've put the bike on the tender to see if the Datatool was smart enough to measure the current and if it was too low stop flashing the LEDS. That would also explain why revving the bike woke the immobiliser up!


It may very well be the battery is not that healthy, but it would probably be a lot better off without this parasitic immobiliser draining current! Hey ho - I'm learning! Alarms/immobilisers suck!

[scb]

Just a final update to say that I got used to working around it until now, but today a mechanic took the datatool out and the problem was solved! Just adding this in case anyone else finds this thread.

[jackomet]

Sounds like Déjà vu all over again, Datatool is evil.
JK

[bikemad]

Old alarms/imobilizers are nothing but agro had two give problems both on fazer 600s ! 1st FZS I had luckily simply resolder some wires by fuse box,the other was last year on my current bike I changed the loom cos all the same colour hard wired in ? put it in the bin after much faffing ?