Engine oil

[VNA]

For me , there's never been any argument that car and motorcycle oils are, and need to be, different. I'm not so cynical that I disbelieve everything the oil companies say. I also wouldn't discount claims of improved fuel consumption and increased power output totally. But as Slaninar says, those benefits may be minimal. The oil companies make vast profits as we all know, but they also stand to lose a great deal if found to be making false claims.

Going by the specs what we are putting in our bikes is pretty basic oil, long ago considered obsolete in the car manufacturing world.

Oil companies are notorious for making false claims, not to mention many other nasty habits that many of em have.  It's pretty much in their interest to confuse you anyway.

Did somebody say Turbo Charger?

Well it's becoming increasingly hard to buy a car that doesnae have one.  As I said earlier have a look at the specs for the latest small capacity petrol engines that some of the big cars firms are now producing.  They are pretty impressive engines!

Think also what a car has got to do.  A bike engine has a far easier job at the end of the day.  Look at the torque figures that many modern cars are now producing.  And yes consider that there is a turbo in there along with far tighter emission standards and that car companies are chasing 24mnth 30,000 mile service intervals now.

But of course just becuase your average car oil is far more sophisticated than your average motorcycle oil does not mean it will be good for your bike. 

And if you want to start another thread that will generate similar amounts of general bull, try something like - will I get more power and better mileage running my Fazer on 98RON fuel?  (before you do the answer is no and no.)

At the end of the day, semi-synth is fine, check the spec in your bike manual, buy a tin of oil quoting that spec and to be on the safe side make sure it has a picture of a bike on the front of it.

I'd would suggest for new or low mileage bikes you avoid fully synthetic oil for a good while, as there is a small risk you polish the bores and end up with piston rings that won't scrub in.  (some may say that this is another internet myth - I dunno) 

Now if you are determined to beat the oil companies, and save a few bob, with a bit of research you may well come up with something better and cheaper.

[Slaninar]

I'd would suggest for new or low mileage bikes you avoid fully synthetic oil for a good while, as there is a small risk you polish the bores and end up with piston rings that won't scrub in.  (some may say that this is another internet myth - I dunno) 

For the first 10.000 kilometers it is good to run the bike on semi-synth. Except for bikes that come with full synth from the factory (most new ones do).

[VNA]

For the first 10.000 kilometers it is good to run the bike on semi-synth. Except for bikes that come with full synth from the factory (most new ones do).

I was of the understanding that most bikes come from the factory filed with a low spec mineral oil.  It aids bedding in and hence the usual 600 mile oil and filter change.

The late Kevin Ash on running in - http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running 

Peter Brett in that article from Castrol oils;

Peter Brett says that they’ve discovered synthetic oils actually interfere with running in, for reasons which go beyond their low friction properties - there also seems to be a chemical process happening which hinders it. “Although you can treat an engine as fully run in after 500 miles, surface stabilisation continues for at least the first 5,000 miles of an engine’s life,” he says. “Synthetic oils actively prevent this from happening, and not simply by holding friction surfaces apart, although we still don’t know exactly why and how this happens. But there’s no doubt they inhibit the process itself. So the consequence of using a synthetic too early is your engine will never run in properly. I would even suggest waiting until 10,000 miles (16,000km) before using it in most engines subjected to normal use. Until then, you’re best to use an inexpensive but branded mineral oil.”

[nick crisp]

I used to do PDIs on new bikes as a Saturday lad (early 80s), and a relatively small amount of low spec oil is all the bikes were delivered in the crates with. On a PDI, you'd drain that out and fill up with the proper oil. Don't know if it's all changed now tho.
Excellent article, fascinating. Thanks for the link VNA.

[VNA]

As I was oot in the garage there, I thought I'd check the spec of the bike oil that I'm paying a pretty penny for.

In the bike at the mo is Fuchs Silkolene Super 4 (semi synth) 10/40 The API spec is SF and SG.

In the bike last year was Fuchs Silkolene Comp 4 (fully synth - dunno why, shop must have given me fully synth for the price of semi by accident) The API spec is SG,SH and SJ

In the car is Unipart Pro P100 10/40 (I get my bits for the car direct from the Unipart distributer - great prices!).  The car is a 2002 VW Bora 2.0  It is not the recommended oil but it's done 70,000 miles so far on it.  The spec is API SL/SJ/CF

If we look up the API web site;

Super 4.  We can see that SF and SG are obsolete.  SF for 1988 and older engines.  SG for 1993 and older.

Comp4.  SG and SH obsolete.  The final spec that it meets is SJ.  Hurrah! It meets a current spec, recommended for engines 2001 and older.

Unipart P100 - SL,SJ and CF  SL - current for 2004 and older.  SJ - current for 2001 and older.  CF obsolete 1994 for all road in-direct injection diesel. 

So there we have it.  The Fuchs motorcycle oils are basic spec lubricants, certainly not the kind of stuff you'd want to put in a modern car.

The cheapest oil here - by a country mile, is the Unipart P100, is the highest spec and ideal for many modern cars. 

Now whilst clearly the P100 is a more sophisticated high spec oil than the basic SF/SG muck that I'm currently putting in the bike, well the problem is again that, as we have seen above, putting too high a spec oil in your engine can cause problems.  Then there is the issue of the pesky friction modifiers, how can we be sure they are not present?

I would suggest that the usual statement that motorcycle oil is higher quality oil than car oil, well it's another internet myth.  The opposite is true.

And yes sadly, to get the cheap basic spec oil we need for our bikes, we have to pay through our nose.

[nick crisp]

I guess if you're an oil producer, you'd be thinking, well, we sell millions more litres of car oil than bike oil, so we'll invest more in research and improvement for the former, and as long as the latter more or less keeps up with engine technology, well it's unprofitable to spend too much time and resources on it?
What are the world's top bike racing teams using? Is it what we buy?

[VNA]

The other spec listed on the Fuchs oils JASO MA  (MA2 I think)

Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation.

MA is your guarantee that the oil is suitable for wet clutch use. 

My conclusion.  Probably as confused as you are.

[nick crisp]

Sorry VNA, crossed your last post - added something to mine.

[VNA]

I guess if you're an oil producer, you'd be thinking, well, we sell millions more litres of car oil than bike oil, so we'll invest more in research and improvement for the former, and as long as the latter more or less keeps up with engine technology, well it's unprofitable to spend too much time and resources on it?

They make the oil that the automotive manufacturers demand.  They in turn have been driven by emission standards.  So it's driven by standards. 

It doesn't look as if the oil you put in your bike has changed much since the late 80's.  In the car world it's changed considerably.

We may yet see advances in motorcycle oil as emission standards are tightened up again.  Just the same as for cars, if the manufacturer demands a high spec oil, the oil producer will come up with the goods and it'll go in your bike.  If not we'll continue with basic oil that hasn't changed much since 1988. 

There is also the 'not been tested to the latest standards' thing that is quoted on the web.  Another internet myth I suggest.  If Yamaha asks for an obsolete API oil, that is exactly what the oil company will deliver.  No more no less.

Whatever you do, do not put bike oil in your car!

[Doddsie]

Ive got a bloody headache now!!!!! :\

[nick crisp]

Serves you right - look what you bloody started! :lol

[Jacko]

The way I see it, it's a bit like tyres.
Handbook for my '98 600 says use radial tyres of correct size,
now this doesn't stop me using the best tyres I can get as things have developed and improved in
the 15 years since my bike was made.

For oil it says use motor oil of a certain spec. Now if i meet this spec, great, if I surpass this with a super
oil of the 21st century then also great.

So meet the minimum and everything else is up to you.

[VNA]

For oil it says use motor oil of a certain spec. Now if i meet this spec, great, if I surpass this with a super
oil of the 21st century then also great.

OK, here we go again.

Yamaha quotes obsolete API specs as recommended oil.  These are specs that date back to the 1980's and 90's.
As far as I know all the genuine motorcycle oil on sale in the UK is manufactured to obsolete API automotive standards.

Feel free to fill your bike with the latest super high tech API SM, but you might not feel so great once you find your clutch is wrecked and you need to get your bores honed and new rings fitted.

I mean you could fill your tank with a higher spec fuel such as methanol, but you know, I don't think it will get you far.

[chaz]

About 10 years ago I was doing some building work for someone who supplied oil to the F1 racing teams, what he told me was that the oil they used was different than what you buy, and cost much more something like 5 times as much, don't know if this is the same in bike racing, anyway on a ride out of say 150 miles how much of that is your engine revving at over 12,000 rpm, not that much or if it is I want to know that ride 8)

[Jacko]

Andy, thats my poorly made point. Minimum spec is fine.

I'm trying to say minimum is good, above that for pretty bike pictures or semi synth
or fully synth is just choice and cost.
I'm a Wilkos 10-40 guy and at 73K miles the bikes fine.

[Slaninar]

Feel free to fill your bike with the latest super high tech API SM, but you might not feel so great once you find your clutch is wrecked and you need to get your bores honed and new rings fitted.

I go higher: API SL. No problems with clutch, or engine. It is BETTER, not worse, you know?

About 10 years ago I was doing some building work for someone who supplied oil to the F1 racing teams, what he told me was that the oil they used was different than what you buy, and cost much more something like 5 times as much, don't know if this is the same in bike racing, anyway on a ride out of say 150 miles how much of that is your engine revving at over 12,000 rpm, not that much or if it is I want to know that ride 8)

Racing oils have less corrosion inhibitors - they are made for heavy use (hot, high revs), but with more frequent changes.

[VNA]

I go higher: API SL. No problems with clutch, or engine. It is BETTER, not worse, you know?

Eh?  What oil are you using?

VNA goes off and googles some more..........................

This is even more confusing than I first thought.

Here an interesting article I found on the web.  It's just a random article on the web, so take it with a pinch of salt, but the fella does seem to have been doing his homework.......  http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm

What is important to note is this: Just as 10W-40 and 20W-50 weight oils are exempt from the
zinc/phosphorus limits put in place by API SJ specifications, these same grade oils are exempt from the
fuel efficiency mandates that the SJ rating requires. Thus, it is not necessary for motor oil
manufacturers to add friction modifiers to their 40 and 50 weight motor oils.
Therefore, it cannot be assumed that just because an oil meets API SJ specs it must contain friction
modifiers. It doesn't have to. Some automotive 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils may contain no friction
modifiers whatsoever. This could only be determined by speaking with the manufacturer themselves.
Unfortunately, if that manufacturer also carries a motorcycle specific brand of oil, it is likely that they
would point you that direction and avoid answering the question. This is because their motorcycle
specific oil generally costs more and makes them a better profit.

More googling, cos Slaninar and the above has me wondering if API SL is available with a picture of a motorcycle on the tin.  Of course if it's API SL car oil 10/40 it might be exempt from all those nasty additives as our man above claims is possible, but being sure is a nightmare.

So what about this - it meets the old SG spec - which I think is what the owners manual asks for - it's marked as JASO MA and has a picture of a motorcycle on the front - so your clutch and gear box will be fine - but is also rated API SL - so has been tested to a current standard unlike the Silkolene stuff I'm currently using.  The price is a fiver more, but considering all we can go on is specs, this looks way ahead of Silolene.  MOTUL 5100 4T 10w40  33 quid 50p

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-915-motul-51...ester.aspx

If you want fully synthetic;  43 quid.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-912-motul-71...ester.aspx

[Slaninar]

Agree with most said in the article you linked.


The oil I've been using and have been happy with is the 7100 Motul 10w40. Like this one:

http://www.motul.com/rs/en/products/39


It costs around 40-45 euros per 4 litre bottle. I guess it's not really MUCH better than Silkolene full synth bike oils, just Silkolene haven't bothered to test their oils to higher standards (it costs). If I didn't get discount for Motul, I'd go for Silkolene, Bel Ray, or any other decent full synth oil.