Quote:VNA, if a few rich people find they can make money importing something from outside the EU, they will pull the strings to open the markets.
But that's simply not the case, as is demonstrated by the experience of the Japanese car industry.
As for food, lets not forget that the selfish Euro framing policies have been flooding third world and developing nations with cheap EU subsidised produce for decades now, in turn undermining their economies. Another area in need of real reform. Yes a big part of the problem is that the EU has expanded rapidly for the benefit of the banks and big business. Our economies have been living beyond their means for 30 odd years now, and finally it's catching up with us.
I'm not arguing for the Euro (any more) and it's been a disaster because it's been so badly managed and it's problems have coincided with a global economic crash.
But of course if the Euro implodes we will feel the chill. Greece for example won't be able to buy much from us, their currency being worth maybe a half, a quarter or less overnight.
What I am arguing for is staying in the Euro economic market. I cannot see the point in leaving, we are stuck with it, so we may as well have a say and not have face possible trade restrictions.
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote:
Recent surveys have shown that people are concerned about global warming and their environment.
Surveys are like statistics, they can be used selectively to give a false representation of the facts and are consequently unreliable as an indicator of public mood.
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote: Of course we are. And if individuals, groups or organisations want to have a say, our democracy allows them to have a voice if they choose to do so. Democracy is not just for polling day, and nor can it be run on referendum on every issue. You elect and/or lobby.
A referendum on every issue is not what people expect. They do however, expect one on questions of fundamental life changing issues. Once an in/out referendum is put to the people of Britain we will indeed see democracy in action, until then our views are being held in contempt.
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote: I doesn't matter whether you agree or not, if you want open access you have to comply with the rules.
This describes exactly the EU ethos. 'It doesn't matter what you may think, this is the way you will do it - or there will be implications for you'. It's like something from a bad gangster movie.
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote: Yes at times it's nuts. Europe needs to get leaner and smarter, but to suggest it's totalitarian state is just being silly.
There are several parallels. How else does one describe a system whereby a sovereign country's laws are thought up and dictated from elsewhere, laws that are enforced rigidly, and by persons unelected by that nation state? Napoleon wanted a united Europe, Hitler did too, yet we fought them both - why?
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote: Put it this way, the UK is trying to re-build it's manufacturing base (it's finally noticed how Germany rides out all economic storms), but if we pull out of Europe (our biggest customer), well maybe we'll find ourselves playing the Japanese game and moving our factories inside Europe to access the market. That's how stupid leaving the EU would be.
If Europeans want our services or goods then they will engage them. If the EU decide to put trade restrictions on us for being outside of it then we must look for other markets to replace them. There needn't be this fixation on Europe being our lifeline, and Blackmail is never an attractive method of doing business. If Britain is rebuilding its manufacturing base then it must compete with cheap labour from abroad, therefore we would be better served to restrict European imports by way of retaliation and provide the goods required for ourselves as we once did.
(10-06-12, 01:51 PM)VNA link Wrote: So we didn't elect Thatcher, we didn't vote for a Labour party dressed in Tory clothes. The people get the government they deserve.
Indeed we did. The fundamental difference is that we were then able to kick them out for failure, an option presented to us each five years. Not so with the EU. Doesn't it bother you that the EU has never once in all its existence had its books signed off? Not once! There are sums of public money ranging into the billions that simply go missing each year, yet no one appears remotely concerned nor has the political will to find out where it went. The whole edifice is arrogant, corrupt, and anti democratic, and the sooner we see the back of it the better.
(10-06-12, 04:27 PM)Rusty link Wrote: [size=1em]A referendum on every issue is not what people expect. They do however, expect one on questions of fundamental life changing issues. Once an in/out referendum is put to the people of Britain we will indeed see democracy in action, until then our views are being held in contempt.[/size]
If elections could change anything, they would have been prohibited. All the politicians work for the same interest group (people with lots of money). They pretend to argue and offer different solutions, while they are just doing what they're WELL paid to do - fool masses into thinking they have a choice, it's a "free", democratic country. Every country that's ever existed has served one purpose: protect the interests of the wealthy and keep the flock obedient. Methods are slightly modulated (more crop, or more carrots), but principle is the same.
Poor will get poorer, rich will get richer. Until another communist - like revolution that will bring it back a bit, but it will start to divide again in no time - with rich-poor gap growing larger again.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.
I completely agree with you - Orwell's Animal farm.
Our collective governments are more likely to be following policies desired by the likes of the Bilderberg group than doing anything that might actually benefit the countrymen they are supposedly representing. It's all a sham. The reason I dislike the EU is because it is so blatant about it. The definition of fascism isn't necessarily an extreme right wing dictatorship, but any form of government that[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/color][color=rgb(51, 51, 51)] suppresses opposition or criticism, plus regiments commerce, industry etc. You are simply not allowed to disagree with the EU diktat.[/color]
[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/color][color=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/color]
[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/color][color=rgb(51, 51, 51)]Funnily enough in English law the EU is unlawful, an inconvenient truth that is simply brushed aside by those who know it. This is why the British constitution group was formed. In much the same way as the soldiers who fought the first world war had nothing to gain from fighting it, and thus returned to poverty and slums, I don't believe that any ordinary person has anything to fear from leaving the Eu.[/color]
Quote:Surveys are like statistics, they can be used selectively to give a false representation of the facts and are consequently unreliable as an indicator of public mood.
[size=1em]Often true. Depends on the question, sample size, so on and so on. But what is clear is that survey after survey is showing real concern.
Frankly the so called 'war on terror' and our current economic woes are nothing compared to the climate related issues that are slowly gathering. And of course you are looking at a whole new generation of technologies, that the whole globe will soon be screaming for, it's a whole new energy market, and it's up for grabs. Do we want to be sellers or buyers? But anyway that's going off at a tangent.
[/size] Quote:[size=1em]Once an in/out referendum is put to the people of Britain we will indeed see democracy in action, until then our views are being held in contempt.[/size]
No you won't, you'll see a zealous right wing press pushing the interests of their wealthy press barron bosses.
Quote:This describes exactly the EU ethos. 'It doesn't matter what you may think, this is the way you will do it - or there will be implications for you'. It's like something from a bad gangster movie.
[size=1em]
No if you join a club you get access and you get a say. You can't say, hey I want in and I want full access but I'm not joining and I'm certainly not paying.
[/size] Quote:[size=1em]There are several parallels. How else does one describe a system whereby a sovereign country's laws are thought up and dictated from elsewhere, laws that are enforced rigidly, and by persons unelected by that nation state? Napoleon wanted a united Europe, Hitler did too, yet we fought them both - why?[/size]
Are you a Daily Mail reader? Oh, and time to issue a Godwin's Law alert! Had to happen!
Quote:[size=1em]If Europeans want our services or goods then they will engage them. [/size]
If we pull out, they will avoid em like the plague, and we'll have just pulled the plug on our most important market. And any economist will tell you that your immediate neighbours are often, if not always, your most important trading partners.
Quote:[size=1em]Indeed we did. The fundamental difference is that we were then able to kick them out for failure, an option presented to us each five years.[/size]
Which brings me neatly back to my point. Neither the Euro or the EU (of which has been on the whole a success) is the source of our current woes. It does make a rather good scape goat though! 30 years of pursuing a neo capitalist agenda and ignoring the basic rules of economics are, and you know what, we, or rather England voted for it, we got what we deserved (and Scotland what England gave us).
And running away from the biggest single market in the world (which just happens to be next door!), and just hoping you'll find something else is simply nuts.
And you can quote me on this (help ma boab!), there will be no in/out referendum on EU membership, no, non, zip, nothing, won't happen, certainly not from the main parties, as nobody with half a brain really wants to push the big red self destruct button. It might play well to the public, the right wing press may well love, it might get you elected, get you noticed, but my guess is half these folks would shit their pants if it was really gonna happen.
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