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+--- Thread: 15w oil in front end (/showthread.php?tid=79406)
15w oil in front end - Disorderlypunk - 15-03-18
ok so after searching the forum today some old posts talk about using 15w oil in the front end for a better feel
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)
Re: 15w oil in front end - celticbiker - 16-03-18
What type and weight of spring do you have in?
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 16-03-18
(15-03-18, 11:24 PM)Disorderlypunk link Wrote: ok so after searching the forum today some old posts talk about using 15w oil in the front end for a better feel
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)
Hello Punk,
Assuming your talking about your FSZ 600, there is very little you can do to adjust anything on the standard FZS 600 damper rod forks as they leave the factory, without major surgery.
The compression is a combination of spring and the oil and the rebound the same.
The speed of compression and the rebound are controlled by the thickness of the oil squirting though a 5 mm hole in the base of the damper rods, thicker oil ...... blah blah blah, you know the score.
The pre-load adjuster on the top of the later models stanchions make very little difference with the standard (Dual rate) springs in, as they are harsh when compression reaches the spring rate change and rebound rapid at first because of the same but slows a little when it reaches the lighter/softer part of the spring.
People say that the standard FZS Fazer 600 springs are progressive but in fact they are dual rate, there is a definite step/change in the spring coils, progressives would change spring rate slowly over its total length, hence progressive. The dual rate springs crash your wrists and jar you when compression reaches that point and also make the bikes handling a little unpredictable when riding around bumpy corners if you hit fast bumps because of that change in the spring rate both on compression and rebound.
True progressives would give you a smooth transition.
Thicker oil in damper rod forks can cause something like hydro lock under certain situations, IE: The oil can not pass quick enough through that 5 mm hole in the damper rods and effectively cause the forks to go solid/seize.
Some one told me, and I have mentioned it in here before so sorry for repeating myself, it is like a child's water pistol if you squeeze the trigger very very softly the water will dribble out of the nozzle, if you pull the trigger at a normal sort of speed the water will squirt out and travel some distance, if the yank the trigger in it will lock/jam the trigger because the water can not pass through the nozzle quick enough, a form of hydro lock, the same principle applies to damper rod forks hit a fast/sharp bump on a fast bend and the forks can stiffen up, worse case scenario lock up.
The picture in this post i have posted before when this sort of topic come up and i make no apologies for posting it again as it shows that the original Yamaha spring on right is not a true progressive spring, to the left of the Yammy spring is an Ohlins linear spring. Chalk and cheese when riding.
To be honest that is the way I would recommend anyone go, do the fork cartridge emulators if you have the finances, time and ability, but they are the extra bit of icing on the cake, the linear springs are the cake and 50% or more of the icing. And it such any easy job to do, the forks stay in the bike, just make sure the front wheel is off the ground (Centre stand with wooden blocking up under the down pipes) just slacken the top yoke pinch allen bolts a tad, make sure the pre-load adjusters are completely unwound then undo the top yoke 17mm cap nuts, go steady, a cloth over the top of the cap nut will help if the cap pops off when its undone, top disk washer out, spacer out hook the old spring out with a bit of wire coat hanger, reverse the procedure and the job is done, honestly its a couple of hours work at the very very most, and if you ever do it again it will take you half the time.
once its all done you can then change the oil.
If you are around 12 to 14 stone fully togged up to ride try 15 weight proper fork oil, I used Silkolene fork oil, but any will do.
Oh! one thing I did not mention the old fork oil will smell like rotten fish and be dark pearlecent in colour. :eek :rolleyes
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 16-03-18
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
Re: 15w oil in front end - Disorderlypunk - 16-03-18
im not going the emulator route as the future plans are to go usd in the future (if i ever get round to the rebuild)
will fire the 15w in and see how she handles, if its a bit too firm i can easily revert back to 10w
cheers guys
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 16-03-18
(16-03-18, 10:21 AM)darrsi link Wrote:
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.
I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a next to useless.
Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.
Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.
It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, but that does not mean it does not happen or exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 16-03-18
On that note I am going to shut the fuck up.
All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.
tommyardin has left the building, Oh! hello Elvis let me get that door for you mate.
Re: 15w oil in front end - Disorderlypunk - 16-03-18
(16-03-18, 11:32 AM)tommyardin link Wrote: On that note I am going to shut the fuck up.
All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.
tommyardin has left the building, Oh! hello Elvis let me get that door for you mate.
dont worry tommy we are listening and thankfully i know what hydrolock is from the classic car race engines we have had to rebuild
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 16-03-18
(16-03-18, 11:25 AM)tommyardin link Wrote: [quote author=darrsi link=topic=23880.msg276842#msg276842 date=1521192091][size=1em][size=1em]
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
[/size]
That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.
I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a next to useless.
Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.
Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.
[/size][size=1em]It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, b[/size]ut that does not mean it does not happen or[size=1em] exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.[/size]
[/quote]
Keep your hair on, i said i have never ever heard of it happening, i didn't say it had never happened to me, which it hasn't either by the way. :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 16-03-18
Actually I am as bald as a coot so the retaining of my hair follicles does not come into the equation.
Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar.
Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.
:finger Darrsi :finger
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 16-03-18
(16-03-18, 10:31 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: Actually I am as bald as a coot so the retaining of my hair follicles does not come into the equation.
Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are [size=1em]mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar. [/size]
[size=1em]Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.[/size]
[size=1em] :finger Darrsi :finger [/size]
Trust me, i ain't known for shouting, my hearing is way too sensitive to even contemplate it.
Dunno why you're getting your knickers (don't wanna know) in a twist, or getting textually aggressive?
Just giving my honest opinion! :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - Disorderlypunk - 16-03-18
SOMETIMES ITS BECAUSE I HIT THE caps lock AND DONT REALISE UNTILL I HAD ALREADY WRITTEN EVERYTHING !!!!!! :lol :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 16-03-18
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 17-03-18
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 17-03-18
(16-03-18, 11:55 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: [size=3.95em]STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF[/size]
I can hear you talking from here, no need to have such colourful language :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - Disorderlypunk - 17-03-18
(16-03-18, 11:55 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: [size=3.95em]STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF[/size]
i am now at least in my honest opinion lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 17-03-18
(17-03-18, 12:03 AM)tommyardin link Wrote: Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
Meeee....pedantic....no way? :lol
Re: 15w oil in front end - darrsi - 17-03-18
(17-03-18, 12:03 AM)tommyardin link Wrote: Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
In my defence, i've never been dishonest on this site because in my eyes that would be unnecessary and just wrong!
Here to "try" and help, i generally won't overstep my knowledge, but will have a laugh in the process.
Due to the age of my bike, buying it in a state, and spending time, money and patience i've got to learn lots myself over the years. Call it self taught if you wish.
I listen too, honest, i'm a learned type of person, i have to be, my job is hectic and technical.
Tommy, if i've somehow offended you AGAIN, it wasn't on purpose, HONESTLY.
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 17-03-18
FFS Darrsi you will have me weeping in my beer if you go all lovey dovey on me. I would sooner you just carried on acting like a cnut. LOL :eek
Re: 15w oil in front end - tommyardin - 17-03-18
Bit rude of me, sorry about that, but