Author Topic: Cut-out relay location - cautiously optimistic it's cured! (Read 4386 times)

Stooby2 · « **on:** 31 May 2013, 08:12:20 am »

Can anyone give me an idea where to look for this relay. still haven't solved the problem of the bike cutting out and this is the next thing to check.

So far..

New kill switch.
All the connectors under the tank checked & cleaned.
Side stand and clutch switches bypassed.
Wiring and connectors to CDI unit checked.
Ignition switch cleaned and tested and appears to be OK.

It's not fuel related as it backfires quite spectacularly when it restarts. Always good fun when going through Brixton.

There's no rhyme or reason to the cutting out - it's completely random, and will disappear for a day or two, which makes me suspect a failing relay. There's no alarm, but it does have an immobiliser, which will be the next item for checking of it's not the cut our relay.

bandit · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 May 2013, 09:13:28 am »

The relay is behind the left-hand side cover.

red98 · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 May 2013, 09:13:46 am »

not sure where the relay is but your on the right track....its backfiring due to the unburnt fuel in the exhaust so has to be a sparks problem

......haynes will tell you where the relay is

Stooby2 · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 May 2013, 01:23:34 pm »

Thanks, I shall have a look over the weekend.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #4 on:** 01 June 2013, 10:29:14 am »

Well I've found it, checked the Haynes manual, which states the only way to test it is to replace it with a known good one. Marvellous. I can't be asked to mess about so I've ordered a new one. All the connections look ok to it so i don't that's the issue.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 June 2013, 05:42:41 pm »

Right fitted the new cut-out relay which arrived today. Thoroughly cleaned the plug contacts first.

No joy. Half a mile up the road it cut out again, same as before. Did it randomly over the next mile or so as I rode back.

Tomorrow will be take the immobiliser apart to see if I can work out how to bypass it.

But any ideas other than that and all the ones I've listed up there? It's definitely not fuel related. I am seriously getting forked off with this now.

Fazerider · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 June 2013, 06:26:50 pm »

Have you tried disturbing the cables while the engine's running? As it's an intermittent problem that sounds like a wire that's chafed through somewhere rather than a component failure. Anywhere that the cables flex with steering or can rub against anything as the engine vibrates and the bike bumps over our potholed roads is a good place to look... see if the engine cuts out when you prod a certain spot.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 June 2013, 06:45:22 pm »

I have had a good look at the loom, and can't see anything unusual. Tried pulling and moving connections with it running with no joy. Then it'll just cut out when left running with no-one near it.

griff86 · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 June 2013, 06:50:00 pm »

Completely remove any alarm/immobiliser and re-solder your original wiring back together.

I had the same fault happen to a guys Hornet 600.

red98 · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 June 2013, 07:01:04 pm »

have you checked the wiring that passes through the gennie cover to the coil pick up ? mines worn through and broken,might be worth a check

Stooby2 · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 June 2013, 08:33:02 am »

Griff - you make it sound so simple! It is one of the options but one Ive been trying to avoid. The wiring to it is very odd and without posting a photo to explain it, nothing is obvious for it.

Red - thanks I will check that.

red98 · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 June 2013, 11:47:29 am »

be best to take the generator cover off,prise the rubber grommet out and ease back to see the wires clearly....good luck

griff86 · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 June 2013, 07:19:17 pm »

I've done it a few times and its not to bad if you take your time, there shouldn't be to many wires to remove the immobiliser from your original loom. It can be quite scary the first time cutting into all that tape and seeing what your working with.

Your original loom will be colour coded so re-joining them should be pretty simple, even if you don't want to solder them, you can crimp them with a suitable connector although solder would be better, make sure you insulate each repaired wire separately .

Stooby2 · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 June 2013, 07:33:37 pm »

Quote

Your original loom will be colour coded so re-joining them should be pretty simple,

This is the odd thing - the immobiliser is under the seat. Near it, and part of the loom, is a 6 wire connector plug. One side of which is all red/white wires, the other is all black wires. The red side (female) has a purpose made connector plugged in that connects all the pins and is capped with a plastic cap.

The male side of the connector has had five wires cut and joined to the plain black wires from the immobiliser. Looking at the Haynes wiring diagram the connector looks like it was intended for an alarm system.

There is a relay in the immobiliser, so hopefully I can work out what gets connected when the relay switches on as it seems to isolate the start button / relay at the least.

unfazed · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 June 2013, 08:03:35 pm »

Quote from: Stooby2 on 11 June 2013, 07:33:37 pm

Quote
Your original loom will be colour coded so re-joining them should be pretty simple,

This is the odd thing - the immobiliser is under the seat. Near it, and part of the loom, is a 6 wire connector plug. One side of which is all red/white wires, the other is all black wires. The red side (female) has a purpose made connector plugged in that connects all the pins and is capped with a plastic cap.

The male side of the connector has had five wires cut and joined to the plain black wires from the immobiliser. Looking at the Haynes wiring diagram the connector looks like it was intended for an alarm system.

There is a relay in the immobiliser, so hopefully I can work out what gets connected when the relay switches on as it seems to isolate the start button / relay at the least.

What type of alarm is it?
Post a picture of the plugs you are referring to under the seat and I may be able to help you identify what you need to do.
There are plugs there for pluging in an alarm and are usually bypassed.
Have you checked the wires to the alternator (Generator) as the pick up for the ignition is in there and can be damaged by removal and replacing the alternator cover. Often overlooked when checking for electricial problems.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 June 2013, 06:02:02 pm »

It's a Datatool Uno Immobiliser, it's not an alarm

Photos of the unit and plugs.

Deefer666 · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 June 2013, 06:10:29 pm »

Buy a loom with no alarm fitted from a breaker or someone who specialises in Fazers (hint hint) . Job done

griff86 · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 June 2013, 07:07:18 pm »

I'd remove it from its mount and completely follow all the wiring to where its connected to the loom, you may have better access with the seat panels removed, snip all the cable ties so you can see exactly what your working with, it will be soldered to the loom under loads of tape that you have to cut into with a blade.

Usually the person who fitted the immobiliser will have stripped back certain wires(6-8 maybe) on your loom and soldered each wire from the immobiliser to the stripped back wire from your loom. You should be able to snip the soldered wire from the immobiliser as close to the loom as possible and re-tape each wire back up.

Sometimes though they will have removed an inch or 2 of your loom when fitting the immobiliser so you have to make up a length of wire to bridge the gap that they took out, as long as you use wire of similar thickness it will work fine even if its not a colour match.

Or do what Deefer suggests

unfazed · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 June 2013, 07:54:03 pm »

The rectangular socket in the first picture is part of the alarm plugs of the original wiring as is the socket with the coloured wiring. There should be a second triangular type 3 pin socket also.
Try and locate the triangular socket.
Bridge the two wires in the socket in the first picture and the two wires of the triangular socket (there will only be two wires in it) when you locate it.
This should bypass the immobiliser if it was wired correctly.
Let me know the result.
Do you have a multi meter and are you familiar with using it because if the above does not work then you will need it.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 June 2013, 08:34:09 pm »

Thanks all. Changing the wiring loom isn't going to happen. I'm working until the weekend, I'll have a look then.

Griff, as stated, it joins the loom where the plain black wires at the plug in the photo have been cut off.

And I do have a multi meter that I can use. My plan may be to remove the unit cover and find out what happens to each wire when the unit activates and then make that permanent.

griff86 · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 June 2013, 07:10:55 am »

Sorry Stoob, I couldn't see the 1st picture last night.

Let us know what you find when you take it apart the weekend.

Stooby2 · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 June 2013, 02:31:34 pm »

Right.

There's no blue triangular plug/socket. There's seven wires from the loom going to the the immobiliser, four of which have been cut from the the white plug in the photo above. I can only assume there was another 3 pin plug that's been cut off completely - and that ties in with the wiring diagram in the Haynes manual that shows nine black wires going to an alarm unit. (i.e. six wires on one plug and three on the other)

looking at the wiring diagram those black wires come from all over the bike and it'll take me a month of Sundays to trace each one and work out what it does. One comes from the CDI unit, one from the cut-out relay and the last thing I want to do is get those wrong and screw those units up.

I'm going to ring Datatool on Monday to see if they do spares for the unit- all I need is the circuit board. There's no way I can cut this damn thing out. And I thought the one on my car was difficult!

The plug with the red/white wires has got me stumped. It's a female one and I was wrong about it connecting to the other plug as that's female as well. There's nothing in the wiring diagram to suggest what it's for, but it is part of the man loom.

And checked the wiring from the genny cover - that's all good. Just have to keep checking plugs for now.

Anyone know if the CDI unit can cause issues?

Stooby2 · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 June 2013, 05:26:37 pm »

Result (I very much hope!)

After contacting Datatool, which is now Scorpion and going through my work, they gave me the info on how to bypass the immobiliser. Done that, taken it for a long ride and all seems to be well now, fingers very much crossed.

I'll take it to work tomorrow just to make sure.

griff86 · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 June 2013, 06:10:18 pm »

Good Job

carrier · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 June 2013, 10:04:01 am »

So was it that?

I get this problem but I don't have an immobilizer... I'm hoping it's the starter solenoid