Strange Rattle

[Yamazer-92]

Hi guys, been noticing a rattle on my bike every now again when pulling away at low revs. It's a loud metallic sound that I can't quite pinpoint but it's on the left, possibly near the sprocket? My front sprocket nut is fine I've checked that. It occurs more frequently if I'm carrying a pillion that is at least 10 stone or so or if I go up a steep hill in too high a gear when it's cold. Oil level is good, I'm changing it soon though. I checked the plugs today and the colour is nice but the outer two were very rusty, this included the threads is that a problem? Can I carefully clean the threads in the head with a cloth soaked in some acf-50?


Also, sometimes when I pull away the revs can drop from idle to around 500rpm for a second or so before it returns back to normal. I have seen the thread about fuel additives and that sounds interesting to try, it doesn't always do it but it is quite random when it does choose to do it. The only time all is seemingly well is if I have been on a ride of at least 10 miles, its usually fine for the next few days but then returns if I do too many short trips at under 4k rpm. I am servicing it within the next month or so, it was allegedly serviced at the dealership I bought it from last year. The engine is really smooth when warm and pulls great its just pulling away sometimes can be annoying, it never stalls though. Any advice would be great thanks.

[darrsi]

Could be cam chain rattle you're describing, it would be more noticeable in this cold weather but should go away once the the bike/oil gets warm.
How many miles has the bike done out of curiosity?
Look it up on here, there's plenty of info about it.


If you look at the fins on the sides of the engine you'll see a drainage hole in the middle of them, get some tubing or wire and "stick it up 'em" and clear any blockages you may have around the top by the spark plug end. Any blockages will make water sit around the plugs and cause rust.


I would seriously advise using some compressed air to try and clear any debris that may be sitting around the spark plug area before you attempt to remove the spark plugs, otherwise you'll get a load of really unwanted crap dropping down the holes into the engine.


Have you ever changed your air filter yet?
Revs dropping on acceleration could just be a cold bike, blocked air filter, air leakage or even carbs may need balancing, that's a bit more difficult to pinpoint without seeing/feeling it to be honest?

[packie]

Hi guys, been noticing a rattle on my bike every now again when pulling away at low revs. It's a loud metallic sound that I can't quite pinpoint but it's on the left,

Next time the rattle occurs, pull in the clutch. If the rattle goes away then it's normal. Balancing the carbs will help to minimize this sound/rattle. It might also help your dip in the idle. You could run the additive that I used too, which might help in case there is anything sticky in the carbs. Use the maximum strength STP on in my thread here........
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6805.0.html

After getting the carbs balanced, it would be no harm to check your TPS on the throttle body right hand side. Turn ignition off and pull out the lead to the TPS. Turn bike back on and plug lead back in while on. On the rev counter you will get one of three setting.... 0rpm, 5000rpm, or 10,000rpm. It should be at 5000rpm. If it is at the other two postions you will need to open those two security thread and position the TPS until it reads 5000rpm.

Best of luck.

[Yamazer-92]

Was a bit worried it would be the cam chain because I've seen a lot about them on here and they sound expensive and pain to fix. I'm not sure if it is, it does rattle a little bit when I start the bike but its very quiet so im not sure if it's just normal. I have the standard pipes and can too so there's nothing to drown it out, the engine still feels nice and responsive when warm too and pulls hard. The bike has done just over 21k miles.


I only properly removed one plug and just the ht leads on the others, so hopefully nothing fell into the engine on the one I removed hasn't played up since. I will do as you say with the tubing though and blow them through before I remove them. I havent changed the air filter yet or looked at it properly although I noticed the drain tube from the filter does very occasionally drain some fluid if I do too many trips to and from work (2 miles) without going for a proper ride between. I was planning on fitting a k & n when I replace it in the service im giving it in may / june. Like I say the drop of revs at pull away is rare and the bike never stalls just a bit annoying sometimes.


Packie I do plan on using that stuff you talked about in your other thread, sounds like good stuff and I would get the strong one. The rattle at idle is a lot quieter than the one that happens if the revs drop too low so could just be me being lazy with the gear changes and putting too much strain on the engine in low revs. This is my first inline 4 bike so I am pretty used to it now but sometimes probably need to change down a gear where before on my twin / single I could have got away with leaving it in a higher gear. I will look into balancing the carbs and check the tps too although I doubt its that as it feels fine 85% of the time.

[packie]

Packie I do plan on using that stuff you talked about in your other thread, sounds like good stuff and I would get the strong one. The rattle at idle is a lot quieter than the one that happens if the revs drop too low so could just be me being lazy with the gear changes and putting too much strain on the engine in low revs. This is my first inline 4 bike so I am pretty used to it now but sometimes probably need to change down a gear where before on my twin / single I could have got away with leaving it in a higher gear. I will look into balancing the carbs and check the tps too although I doubt its that as it feels fine 85% of the time.

Well it's not so much a v-twin verus a inline four thing...its more what revs a bike responds too best and its characteristics.

My Bandit 1200 is an inline four and it will pull at 1,500rpm in any gear and while it is a way bigger engine, there is only about 10bhp in a difference between the two bikes in actual horse power. My Fazer just don't like that "low down pulling carry on", as the torque is found more up the rev range. So the Fazer is a sort of high reving bike and it needs to be in high revs were its more at home. Your v-twin and my Bandit would be more geared differently and wouldn't have such a high revving characteristic.


Even in town riding (30mph and under), I'll be in either 1st, or 2nd gear...and maybe 3rd depending. But what gear I am in, is irrelevant. More importantly, its the revs i'm more interested in. I make sure i'm keeping my revs up about 4-5,000rpm all the time if possible and higher if i'm seriously on the go. My Fazer just doesn't like to be labouring around 2K and under IMO.

[His Dudeness]

The service should get rid of the dropping revs. I'd say the noise is unrelated to that and I could be wrong but from the way you described the noise it doesn't sound like a cam chain problem to me.

Cam chains don't really make loud metallic noises they make more of a rapid ticktick noise that rises and falls with the rpm of the engine, carrying a pillion or going up a hill wouldn't have any effect on a cam chain noise. To me it seems more like a drive chain noise that you're describing.  Hopefully simonm doesn't mind posting his link but here's a cam chain noise

FZS600 Starting Rattle

[Yamazer-92]

Yeah totally get you, I meant first inline 4 that isn't a big thou plus beast of a thing tuned to be torquey  . Tbh, the twin I had was a GS 500 and it was restricted so it was as weak as piss but it still felt like it handled sub 4k commuting rpms better than the fazer from memory even when cold / with a pillion. My fazer handles it fine it just does that big rattle occasionally then makes a nice low grunt sound and power kicks in a bit harder at 3k. It's interesting you ride in 2nd gear a lot and keep at 4-5k as I usually stick it in 3rd or 4th and have it at 2.5 - 3k for 30 -40 mph general riding. It still pulls nicely though, it sounds as if im complaining and I'm not at all, like I say maybe just need to change down more and let it rev. The engine has waves in my opinion and its like a 3 stage thing. Sub 4k is relaxed mode for town, 4-8k is its nice mid torque area and then at 8-8.5 to red line the thing goes mental all of a sudden and makes me grin like a mug every time.

[Yamazer-92]

The service should get rid of the dropping revs. I'd say the noise is unrelated to that and I could be wrong but from the way you described the noise it doesn't sound like a cam chain problem to me.

Cam chains don't really make loud metallic noises they make more of a rapid ticktick noise that rises and falls with the rpm of the engine, carrying a pillion or going up a hill wouldn't have any effect on a cam chain noise. To me it seems more like a drive chain noise that you're describing.  Hopefully simonm doesn't mind posting his link but here's a cam chain noise

Cheers for that his dudeness, his rattle is quite loud there when he's right next the engine. From memory I dont think mine is as loud as that. It does sound similar though just a lot quieter and its literally with my head right next to the cylinder. The drive chain is new and correctly adjusted so unless its some strange lash with the weight of the pillion on the back I am not sure if it would be that. I could try and upload a video but I'm rubbish with technology and don't have a youtube account.

[His Dudeness]

yeah a video would be the best way to go if you can do it. if you have to have your head close to the engine to hear it then it's probably a normal amount of noise from the cam chain, they all rattle a bit on the fazer but if you're hearing loud metallic sounds that's different

[Dead Eye]

Mine did the whole dropping revs when pulling away but hasnt done it since I changed the mixture screws on the carbs as mine was over fuelling. So a Carb balance would definitely be a good start

[darrsi]

I've always thought a 'sewing machine' is a good reference to what cam chain rattle sounds like.

[simonm]

The service should get rid of the dropping revs. I'd say the noise is unrelated to that and I could be wrong but from the way you described the noise it doesn't sound like a cam chain problem to me.

Cam chains don't really make loud metallic noises they make more of a rapid ticktick noise that rises and falls with the rpm of the engine, carrying a pillion or going up a hill wouldn't have any effect on a cam chain noise. To me it seems more like a drive chain noise that you're describing.  Hopefully simonm doesn't mind posting his link but here's a cam chain noise

don't mind at all 

[unfazed]

The problem you are describing is most likely what is known as pinking or pre ignition.
Occurs when you pull away with to low a throttle. Usual causes are idle set to low, not enough throttle taking off, over advanced ignition, incorrect grade plugs and low octance fuel. Since it happens when cold and two up it appears you are letting the revs drop to low when taking off.
A few things to do/check to stop it happening:
Set the idle speed (when hot) to 1200/1250 rpm
Balance the carburettors
Set the TPS to ensure it reads 5000 rpm on the rev counter after balancing the carburettors and adjusting the idle speed. There is a small range of adjustment in where it will stay at 5000 rpm. set it to the 10000 rpm side of the adjustment. (Your only means of adjusting the ignition timing on the fazer).
Check the plugs are CR8E not the colder CR9E which are recommended for the Southern Europe and warmer climates, 'Colder plugs' will also exacerbate the issue,
I know, I know    many will say, but I always use 9 without issues, but then that do not have the issue described in this post
Keep the revs a little higher when taking off.
 

[unfazed]

I've always thought a 'sewing machine' is a good reference to what cam chain rattle sounds like.

You would want to get the sewing machin checked out if it sounds like a cam chain rattle

[packie]

Yeah totally get you, I meant first inline 4 that isn't a big thou plus beast of a thing tuned to be torquey  . Tbh, the twin I had was a GS 500 and it was restricted so it was as weak as piss but it still felt like it handled sub 4k commuting rpms better than the fazer from memory even when cold / with a pillion. My fazer handles it fine it just does that big rattle occasionally then makes a nice low grunt sound and power kicks in a bit harder at 3k. It's interesting you ride in 2nd gear a lot and keep at 4-5k as I usually stick it in 3rd or 4th and have it at 2.5 - 3k for 30 -40 mph general riding. It still pulls nicely though, it sounds as if im complaining and I'm not at all, like I say maybe just need to change down more and let it rev. The engine has waves in my opinion and its like a 3 stage thing. Sub 4k is relaxed mode for town, 4-8k is its nice mid torque area and then at 8-8.5 to red line the thing goes mental all of a sudden and makes me grin like a mug every time.

First, I don't think that you are complaining at all....you are just a concerned owner.....big difference.

Even though your GS500 may be weak as piss compared to a Fazer, it still would have different characteristics to the Fazer and as hard as it may seem to comprehend, it probably is better low down for town work....simple as that.

MCM  review: "The Suzuki GS500E probably performs best in town where a bit of low down grunt can see you out of any nasty entanglements." The restriction will have no efffect on this either. The bike makes its 47bhp at 7.5-9,000rpm (depending on model),.....so that is were the restriction will be and not low down the rev range.

The Fazer on the other hand has to cover it all. It has to be a little torqey low down and be a bit stronger mid-range....while still having to have a good top end too. Not alone does it do this, but it also outputs nearly double the bhp of the GS with it's engine only just a 100cc more!!

IMO, I do feel that you are in the wrong gear for your town riding even solo, let alone with a pillion. I think you should be down one cog and have the rpm up to about 4k at least...except when in 1st. I like to get out of 1st straightaway and before 3,000rpm.  Any higher revs tends to give a more rough changeover in the gearbox.

Remember, running the Fazer at 4k in town is still only a third of the rev range. And sometimes acceleration is needed instead of braking to avoid certain emergencies in town, so keeping it in that range will ensure you have both options available to you on tap if an emaergency should arise.

Having said that, I had something like your odd snatchy dip low down too. Maybe it is a characteristic of the bike or maybe it's something not right with the carbs or my set up. All I know is that I used the STP along with a carb balance. I don't really experience that dip at all now. But keeping the revs up will certainly keep you away from the area where it could happen. The dip normally happens for me when the I leave the bike go close to near labouring revs like at 1,500 rpm.

"Unfazed" has given some solid advice there so when you get a chance, follow those instructions and alter your riding technique a little for this bit and you should be fine.

[darrsi]

I've always thought a 'sewing machine' is a good reference to what cam chain rattle sounds like.

You would want to get the sewing machin checked out if it sounds like a cam chain rattle

I know, i thought of using a slightly thicker oil to try and alleviate the problem.
When the tickover is working properly the stiching can be absolutely fabulous....... 

[Yamazer-92]

Thanks for all of the advice guys, I am sure at least one of these ideas will sort the problem. For starters I will let it rev a bit higher, I sound like a panzy riding it round at tickover all the time haha when I do give it plenty of good runs, just around town it feels a bit odd having it reving at 4k I think as it sounds like it's trying harder than it actually is if that makes sense? My Dad mentioned something similar when we swapped bikes, he thought it was revving high by ear when it was actually at like 4k revs, although he has an SV so isnt used to having a powerband 


Unfazed, I just researched pinking and it sounds like you have it spot on. I will still balance the carbs etc soon though and use the STP stuff and the throttle position sensor adjustment as it can't hurt, we had to fiddle about with the carbs when we removed my restrictors a few months back so likely nudged something out.


Packie, yeah I did like the GS for its commuting ease, that was where it was strong even up to 70mph but then fell hard on its ass. I loved that bike though, MCN slagged it off good and proper, likely comparing it's 2 star rating to something like a Ducati 1098 like they like to do. For what it was, it was a great bike I just physically didn't fit on it very well as I am 6'4 and have ridiculous bionicle legs which were too long for the tank indents, still got the bike for free off my dad and made a big profit on it    Obviously it has nothing on the Fazer though.

[size=78%] [/size]
I know, i thought of using a slightly thicker oil to try and alleviate the problem.
When the tickover is working properly the stiching can be absolutely fabulous....... 

Hmmm, a 600cc sewing machine, now that would be impressive!

[Will.I.Is]

Check the sprocket carrier bearing isn't dead, I noticed mine was buggered when i put new rubber on and I have a similar noise so that will be done next week with the service. I'll report back if it solves it!