Corner with stone chippings on it. What to do?

[simonm]

Riding yesterday I went around a corner wide and I'm trying to figure out what I should have done
. Advice?


Scenario: setup for the corner, Committed for gear, speed and entry point when I notice a foot wide sprinkling of grit about 3 foot long all through my chosen path. I tried to go around the outside and ran wide. Thankfully no car on the other carriage way.

Help...

[Exupnut]

there is no accounting for grit and shit on the road, it can be anywhere but u saw it which shows ur lookin at road surface aswell,,v good, and so u went wide to avoid and kept it upright without hitting oncoming traffic. thats good riding mate. u didnt do anything wrong. one other thing u couldhave done too keep you line (provided u wern't leaning over to much) is simply to pull the clutch in and get bike upright,(this will save the front) gravel and shit etc will fling u off when u r in drive as  the tyre is giving traction which is what will make the back spin out.

[pitternator]

tricky  as either way  can give you grief. BUT running on other side of road is more likely to kill you !
best advice is to use road positioning to see through a bend before you commit . Slow in fast out is the motto.I have turned into blind bends before with stationary traffic the other side...observation is key to maintaining progress. Have seen so many crashes on you tube with bikers trying their hardest to go as fast as possible through bends, when in reality if they had seen and analysed the corner they would have used appropriate speed.Similarly with seeing through a bend and having time to recognise a hazard and take avoiding action.Worst thing on gravel BTW is to brake or accelerate....usually the wheel will skip a bit but regrip once on smooth tarmac. Keep wheels as upright as possible and steer ahead if possible.IF the corner is observed properly and speed is appropriate , you will have at least some time to react.
Its an old adage but most corner crashes are due to excess speed through lack of experience/ knowledge in watching the road ahead...and using appropriate speed. Restraint is maybe the hardest skill any biker has to gain to keep alive.
Personally I never commit to any corner I cannot fully see through. Hence why so many of our roads aint that good for fast riding. And why trackdays are so much better !
 
Speed comes with experience. Gain the experience first, the speed is easy then.

[mtread]

Sometimes the bike will make it. It's often a better rider than we are! If you think it won't, you have a split second decision. As said, clutch in and upright, or run wide. You have to judge from the road conditions at the time. Is there anything on the other side of the road? How tight is the bend? Will your entry speed allow you to pull the bike upright. And of course there is a whole list of things you don't do, like panic and brake. You make your choices and take your chances. Observation, and mostly experience is all. That's why we're all (touch wood) still alive   

[stevierst]

It happened to me last night on the way home from work. Having a bit of a play on the back roads. My favourite bend came up, and mid lean    Fresh Farmers mud about an inch thick across the whole lane!!! (it wasn't there 10 hours earlier on the way in!)
 
Needless to say I sh@ myself as the front end slid wide and it all shook up and shimmy'd round the bend. I think that keeping the throttle applied, and not tensing up helped save the bike (and me) this time. A phonecall to the council will have this bugger sorted!
 
As for our scenario Simonm. If what you did works, and you survived it, learn from it bud. Some damned good advice from the guys above.
Even more from these guys.

Twist of the Wrist II

A twist of the wrist II. Best cornering advice a biker could ever get!
 

[Dead Eye]

+1 to Twist of the Wrist II

I actually watched it again last night as well. A couple of people have mentioned pulling the clutch in, which is almost as bad as chopping the throttle. The problem with this is that weight transfers to the FRONT of the bike which makes you run wide and demand more from the front tyre - so be very aware when doing this. A lot of the advice in Twist of the Wrist is to keep throttle applied and rolled on gently to keep weight balanced and slightly more towards the rear where you have the largest contact patch.

If the road conditions are poor, reduce lean angle enough to still get round. Remaining loose as stevierst said is also very important, don't hang on for dear life, let the bike do the work. Unfortunately, its all very easy to say it but doing it is a whole other matter.

[Buzz]

Remaining loose as stevierst said is also very important, don't hang on for dear life, let the bike do the work.

Still one of the hardest things for me, I suddenly find myself gripping the bars like crazy with my legs tensed up against the tank.  I force myself to relax but as soon as I concentrate on the traffic I'm back to tensing again, can really feel it in the corners sometimes.  I think my brain is telling my body that it's going to fall off the bike so hang on.


Damn those SRs!!

[Dave48]

SEE IT
PLAN IT
POSITION FOR IT
DO IT !
if something catches you unawares youre travelling too fast for the situation, so as already said SLOW IN QUICK OUT.
Decision making can be broken down into 3 parts: What you can see, What you cant and What MIGHT HAPPEN (broken down vehicle,flock of sheep, mud on road etc)
its a steep learning curve but better  safe than dead. 

[JZS 600]

In shit weather I make sure I'm gripping the tank with my knees to save having a strangle hold on the bars so you're less tense in the upper body and the bike can steer better following a natural line.
 
Other than that, look ahead as far as you can

[Dead Eye]

My instructor relentlessly drilled in to me "Bottom tight, top lose" so grab on with your legs and thighs etc, but keep the top of your body lose. It's still hard and its very very difficult to overcome your Survival Reactions - unfortunately it requires experience and / or practice - but who wants to practice brown trouser moments :|

[Grahamm]

Three rules on positioning: Safety, Stability, View and always remember you need to be able to stop in the distance you can see clear on your side of the road. Also remember that you need to sort out your speed *before* you select your gear for the corner.

First thing to do is to look at the limit point (the furthest point ahead you can see the road clearly) and adjust your speed so that it's staying in a constant position. If it's coming towards you, you're going too fast, so slow down.

This will also give you time to observe the road surface ahead of you and be able to change your speed and position again if you're heading towards a dodgy surface.

Once you have your speed sorted, then change to a gear which will give you the best drive through the corner ie where keeping a balanced throttle will have the engine just "pulling" as you corner, whilst opening it will give you acceleration and closing it will brake you.

If you *have* to brake in a corner *only* use engine braking or rear brake, this will tend to pull you into the corner whilst the front brake will put the bike upright and send you wide.

If you need to steer, grip the tank with your thighs, push down with your outside leg (anchor it on the footpeg and press your outside thigh into the tank) and then countersteer by pushing the inside handlebar away from you which will cause the bike to lean further into the turn. Bikes are actually incredibly good at cornering *if* you let them. Panicking, straightening the arms and grabbing the front brake will all make it very difficult for the bike to do what it should.

And, most importantly, remember what happened to ensure that it is less likely to happen again

[Dead Eye]

If you *have* to brake in a corner *only* use engine braking or rear brake, this will tend to pull you into the corner whilst the front brake will put the bike upright and send you wide.

The issue with any form of braking or slowing down in a corner is that the weight gets transferred forward on to the front wheel which forces it to run wide - Twist of the Wrist II illustrated this quite well and helped me to understand what the forces on the wheels were actually doing.

I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, just trying to clear up that little point a bit as its something that really opened my eyes when I first watched TotW last year Your post was in fact very helpful and informative, kudos

[Rebuilt]

got to say wha ever you choose to do  or not do  be carefull ...last time i ran into grit on a corner i was somehow thriugh it before i thought about it ... then thought what could have been .. noyt nice as there was a coach coming the other way on a back lane  .

Be carefull whichever method you choose but paractice and forward thinking seem to be the best

[Chillum]

If you *have* to brake in a corner *only* use engine braking or rear brake, this will tend to pull you into the corner whilst the front brake will put the bike upright and send you wide.

The issue with any form of braking or slowing down in a corner is that the weight gets transferred forward on to the front wheel which forces it to run wide - Twist of the Wrist II illustrated this quite well and helped me to understand what the forces on the wheels were actually doing.

I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, just trying to clear up that little point a bit as its something that really opened my eyes when I first watched TotW last year Your post was in fact very helpful and informative, kudos

Blimey, that's the nicest way I heard anyone say YOUR WRONG! </Alan Partridge> for ages

I think you've got a fan Graham :P

[Dead Eye]

If you *have* to brake in a corner *only* use engine braking or rear brake, this will tend to pull you into the corner whilst the front brake will put the bike upright and send you wide.

The issue with any form of braking or slowing down in a corner is that the weight gets transferred forward on to the front wheel which forces it to run wide - Twist of the Wrist II illustrated this quite well and helped me to understand what the forces on the wheels were actually doing.

I'm not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, just trying to clear up that little point a bit as its something that really opened my eyes when I first watched TotW last year Your post was in fact very helpful and informative, kudos

Blimey, that's the nicest way I heard anyone say YOUR WRONG! </Alan Partridge> for ages

I think you've got a fan Graham :P

Hahaha, maybe so, but I'm a firm believer of being polite towards others - gets you a lot further than the alternative when there is no due reason. More than anything, I posted to make sure that people understand and don't end up coming off their bikes 

[Grahamm]

Hahaha, maybe so, but I'm a firm believer of being polite towards others - gets you a lot further than the alternative when there is no due reason. More than anything, I posted to make sure that people understand and don't end up coming off their bikes 

Thanks. Of course what I posted there wasn't the full story by any means, as it says in TotWII just chopping the throttle isn't good for you, but (as it also says towards the end) a slight and gentle roll-off can be of use.

Similarly, simply stamping on the rear brake won't help, but a little bit of pressure can be of benefit.

The most important point is to keep all your inputs progressive, rather than abrupt since those will just destabilise the bike.

[His Dudeness]

I'd say take all answers you get with a pinch of salt because no one can type out the best way to get through gravel because every situation is different and when it comes down to it you generally don't have time to think you just have to use your judgement and experience to deal with the situation. The only advise I'd give is if you find yourself in a position where you're about to hit a patch of gravel and you can't avoid it or you're going through gravel just try to stay calm. If you don't panic you'll probably make it through in one piece.

[AdieR]

Firstly, congratulations - you lived to tell the tale; many don't unfortunately. We all get things wrong from time to time, even the best of us. We can only hope for a good outcome when things go pear-shaped.

Secondly (and I'm going slightly off topic here) - I've always been a believer in the 2-wheels before 4 idea; it'll help car drivers understand why bikers sometimes take up seemingly strange road positions.

Anyhow, I personally always "plan" for gravel / fuel / mud etc (as much as is possible) - that way, if I do come across it, it's less of a surprise, which reduces the panic factor.

If you do need to do anything (brake / steer / change gear etc) on a dubious surface - keep it smooth. Last minute, rushed adjustments due to panic will almost certainly see you going down the road, because it'll de-stabilise and unsettle the bike - unsettling the bike will unsettle you and increase the panic factor.

As stated by someone else, most bikes ultimately are more capable than the riders on top - so trust it.
In this weather, you won't get much tyre heat (thus reducing grip), but ensuring your tyres are in decent nick and at the right pressures make quite a big difference too.

When all said and done, it's mostly road mileage that helps - there's just no substitute for it. As summed up by a mate at work a few years ago (and has stuck with me since) "it's not diesel, or rain, or gravel or stupid car drivers that causes accidents, it's not knowing how to deal with it that does".

[slimwilly]

Leg out, and gass it man 

[pitternator]

its still more about avoiding panic situations in the first place. All too often caused by simply going too fast for a road situation, and the available amount of road observation. I rode over the french alps last yr through 12 miles of gravillons on my GS( intermittent patches of fresh road gravel, all very loose! ). I had no issues at all. Why ? Cos I was riding at appropriate speed and using all my observational skills.I knew what was coming so could ride accordingly.Its not so much about being able to stop as such , but giving yourself TIME to act.
I am no riding god, just common sense and knowing how to practice the life saving art of restraint.
Grahamm is almost dictating IAM doctrine, but simplified its the same message.Learn how to ride within the limits of observation. Forget vanishing point at this stage, whats relevant is how much you can see for your speed.The vanishing point is  a technique for judging the severity of a bend, but much can be learned about many corners before getting there, by observing hedges , signs etc.Your road positioning is key to maximising that , and ensuring all braking and gear changes are done before the corner entry.A trailing throttle keeps the bike on track. Obviously Mr Keith Code is the guru on all matters cornering !!
For totally blind bends, my advice is still, slow down!! Anything could happen in the next 5 seconds ....