handling issues

[coxylaad]

Hi,
    I have been on here for a million years now, don't normally post but always watching


I have owned my Fazer 1000 since 2004, and in that time I have done a few modifications to get it to be the bike I want it to be.


Here's a brief summary of the work done:


2002 Fazer 1000
R1 front forks with Maxton internals
renthal 758s
Wilbers rear shock with hi and lo speed damping
ivanised.
Mivv GP carbon exhaust
air filter of some description I cant remember


The bike has never let me down in 28,000 miles, but I went out for a blast up hartside with my mate on his 08 fireblade, and I normally don't ride that fast.
When pushing on I started to notice the front end pushing wide and not wanting to hold its line.  I would call it a bit chatter too (If was Casey Stoner)


I like the front end of my bike to go exactly where I want it to go, so I need to do something about this.


Any ideas? I set the suspension up years ago when I fitted it and I never had any problems, but then I never rode that hard.
I took my dads R1200GS (also wilbers equiped)  out the other day with the same lad on a fireblade, and I felt total confidence in the kicking its head in everywhere, and I never had any problems with the front end pushing wide, at the same sort of pace.


Any ideas?


Ian

[allanmac]

Maybe time to service the suspension fresh oil etc. Even good kit gets tired eventually. Depend how hard you were trying. I got smoked by a guy on a new gixxer thou yesterday had the fazer tied in knots trying to keep him in sight let alone keep up!
Cheers Allan

[Falcon 269]

... and I normally don't ride that fast.

Ian

Hi Ian,

There you have it, I reckon.  You've pushed on beyond the point where you and your suspension settings were comfortable.  Or tyres, tyre pressures, etc etc.  What have you got on there?  What sort of mileage on 'em?

I agree with Allan about getting the suspension refreshed at both ends.   Then start experimenting with set up if you want to but remember that you'll never get the 11 year old, steel frame Gen 1 to grip and handle like a true sports bike.

Also, ask yourself how well equipped you are skill-wise to push your Fazer that hard.  Doesn't take much to go beyond your comfort level to the point where tension starts to interfere with your control and riding.  Not dissin' you as a rider, just making a point that we all have our limits.

[coxylaad]

the Forks are about 5 year and 10k old, the shock probalby has 5k on it maximum.


I am thinking a lot of it is in my setup. I think it may be a little on the stiff side, but I am not 100% sure on how it should be set up.


Riding wise I wasn't pushing beyond my comfort zone, well I wasnt until the bike was pushing it nose wide accelerating out of tight corners - that tends to introduce some tension into the situation lol
I know my limits and wont go beyond them. I was out with a group of lads that were riding way too fast for me, so I ended up letting them go. I don't want to die! My point was about my dads fettled R1200GS, I was travelling the same speeds on that and I felt nothing but total confidence in the front end both entering and exiting corners.


How do I go about getting a base setting with the kit that I have on the fazer?

[kebab19]

Are the springs either end the right weight for you? If not, you'll never arrive at your perfect settings.

If you have, the old Gostar suspension setup guide is always the best starting point IMO
 
http://www.gostar-racing.com/information/motorcycle_suspension_set-up.htm

followed by this on the WP site:

http://www.wpsuspension.co.uk/setup.php

[allanmac]

Had a ride on my mates  amazingly well even with the kid on trail bike tyres    couldnt believe how far over he leans the thing ! Last time I was out a run he was scraping the engine bars.
Cheers Allan
 

[coxylaad]

Thems good sites kebab thanks. that is where I will start.


Now that I think about it I am a stone lighter than when I set the bike up the first time.


I think what i am looking for is more front end feel.

[The Male Whale]

Running wide on the power is usually the rear squatting under power and taking the weight off the front. If the line tightens when the power is shut off then - QED.
 
That can either be caused by too soft a spring (as happened on my Tuono R) or lack of ride height at the back (as happened with my K5).
 
Most front end problems are consequences of a poor rear end.
 
Whale

[cable tie]

Starting point Is to set the sag get that correct and than the rest is fine tune reb/comp to your liking.

[tex]

 
Could be the tyres, how many miles, are they squared of?, i just put a new front on mine and cant get over how much better it corners.
 
                             tex

[coxylaad]

The tyres are Michelin Pilot Road 3s with less that 500 miles on them, so its definitely not those.


I think I have just exposed poor setup with quicker riding that I don't normally do. I will be having a mess about on Sunday, will let you all know.


Thanks for all the input


Ian

[know your limitations]

Now that I actually know what the term means, can I ask whether you've dropped your forks yet or have they been left at stock setting?
I've just done it on mine (along with a jack up kit for the rear) and I've now got a totally different bike. The turning is as sharp as a tack.
It's covered in this thread http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,3079.0.html and after much patient guidance from fellow fine foccers, I'm well chuffed I did it.
On your "chattering" issue, if I'm on the same wavelength, I had similar on mine and it was quickly sorted by softening the front damping by 2 or 3 clicks. Felt like I was riding a pneumatic drill!

[Falcon 269]

Now that I actually know what the term means, can I ask whether you've dropped your forks yet or have they been left at stock setting?

Oh, they're dropped alright ... you probably missed the fact that he's got R1 forks fitted and those are a good deal shorter than Fazer originals.

[coxylaad]

Yes I have R1 forks and a one off stepped billet yoke - see pics:








Oh forgot to mention I have shorter dog bones too for more rear ride height. Full setup with pics coming at the weekend. and I will report on the feel of the thing.
When I say chatter what I mean is the feel of the front wheel skipping over the tarmac as opposed to biting in and giving the feeling of grip.

[Phil TK]

My Fazer is jacked up at the rear with aftermarket dogbones and I have the yokes 10mm down on the forks, it steers much better than stock. I might add that I recently tried dropping the yokes to 15mm down and it steered even better,  but at a price. I had Road Attack 2s fitted and they seemed to have the stability to cope with the quicker steering which was good, but after I changed to Pilot Road 2s the stability went to pot, especially under heavy braking where the front would twitch and squirm so much I even replaced the front wheel bearings and re-set the head  bearings because I thought they where at fault, but it was the change in tyres. With the yokes set back to 10mm all is well again, but when I go back to Road Attack 2s I might drop them to 15mm.
 I did play with tyre pressures a little bit, 'tried from 34-40psi on the front but no difference, I did note (what I already know) that front RA2s have to be run at the correct pressures to work well (36psi)
 I have a Wilbers shock too, no complaints really, but I found the high speed comp damping needed to be backed off a bit, but that improved comfort more than anything else.

[Falcon 269]

I'd forgotten your stepped yokes, Ian.  Those restore things back closer to the original front end height but I presume yours is still lower than stock?

[coxylaad]

and then some Mike. I have ended up dropping the R1 forks through the yokes as it looked a bit like something off american chopper!


ok I had a mess about this afternoon, and since there is an inkling that the rear could be too soft I checked the rear sag. static was 18mm and the rider was 48mm, and I didn't have me gear on either. 
So I have wound the preload on the shock up, I now have a static sag of 8mm, and a rider sag of 30mm, again with no gear on.


I hoped to do a full setup and weather and family BBqs got in the way. Anyways its good to just change one this at a time and see what the effects are.


I will report back tomorrow.

[ghostbiker]

I am finding rider sag of 30 is to harsh, going to increase mine by backing off the preload to 35 or even 40 next weekend.
untill then i have been trying to compensate with backing compression right off but still not happy.
soaks op the smooth stuff ok but a harsh bump still hurts

[1967fazer]

I've just changed my bars from 758s to 658s, its made a world of difference to the attitude of the handling and the way I ride. Just puts my weight a bit more over the front end and gives me  that much more feel. Personal choice I know, but its certainly made a difference for me. By the way, standard forks, no idea what settings, R6 rear shock, slightly jacked up, Pirelli Angel STs front and rear.

[coxylaad]

sorry for the delay in updating this thread.


I made some changes, and it did help somewhat, but as was pointed out the main problem was myself.


I have not had much chance to ride the bike in the last couple of year, and I appear to have developed a few nasty habits - like chopping the throttle going into corners, completely upsetting the bike.


Had a good read of Keith Code's 'Twist of the Wrist' and the bike now feels a third of the weight it did! marvelous!


thanks for the input chaps.


Coxy

[joe43]

Kieth's 'get the throttle cracked' advice seems to work wonders on this machine - great book!

I'm also on Pilot Road 3's and think they're great tyres but...
The profile of the front is _much_ more relaxed than a sports tyre, and I'm a little too aggressive for it when turning in.
For example the Pilot Power front has an almost triangular profile (riding on a knife edge) in comparison.

Anyway, easiest is to start at the back and work forwards.
A bit of squat is required for a successful 'on line' corner exit, but too much is going to make it run wide - Does an extra click or two of low speed compression damping make any difference?

[Falcon 269]

Try it and see.

So much depends on how you ride, where you place your weight etc.

There are no fixed answers to this black art, only ideas to steer you on the road to enlightenment, Grasshopper.

[Phil TK]

Kieth's 'get the throttle cracked' advice seems to work wonders on this machine - great book!

That book has been the biggest influence on my attitude to machine control both on the road and track. A classic.
 If you get throttle control right, the rest is easy/easier.

[pitternator]

you cant compare a GS to a fazer ...the paralever set up gives a totally different feel.Plus its  a totally different spring / damping set up as its a semi off road bike.
 
my advice would be to take your fazer to a trackday  if possible and experiment  with settings. For me its the best environment to see what the bike can do, and improve your cornering skills.
 
I also would comment that our roads are deteriorating very fast and firm suspension settings will tend to give you the " chatter" you describe..its godawful road rippling much of the time. Again , if you take a bike like a GS with its supple damping on such roads it will automatically feel much more stable.
 
I have been experiencing some issues with my K tech suspension , but in truth so much of it is the poor road surface in so many areas.As you push yer fazer faster and harder , it will start getting noticed.After test riding over half a dozen bikes recently , I came back to my fazer realising the sussies aint that bad after all ! Sometimes you do need a fresh perspective.
I also would say that a fazer probably wont handle as well as a fireblade, particularly at speed, so maybe dont have too high an expectation. Similarly , on several occassions, on my fazer I have been gobsmacked at a GS roadholding. Just cos we love our fazers, dont always mean they are the best out there at everything !