Ivanized fuelling problem.

[Ian-man]

My fazer had the full monty Ivan treatment done by Mike last year and to be honest my bike didn't seem to be a lot different. I don't know if I was expecting too much, although it was much smoother on cold start with the choke.

I got the opportunity to have my bike tested at Jordan's dyno in Leeds yesterday. The results were 129bhpat the back wheel (which I think is about std without Ivan kit) and lean fuelling right accross the range. The tester advised that I needed bigger jets between 3 and 5 sizes bigger.

1. I suspect that my Simmi silencer may not be helping the available horsepower so which silencer gives the best horsepower increase or works well with the Ivan full monty kit.

2. Is Mike on this forum or coming to the uk this year. Or are there any recommended places to get my carb jetting altered in the North East as Jordans in Leeds wants £150 for re jetting and they are also 90 miles away from me.

[Tmation]

Can you post up the dyno print out? I was once told mine was running weak but he had his air fuel ratio line (known as stoichiometric ratio) set at 13.7 to 1 and it should be 14.7 to 1.

Any mixture less than 14.7 to 1 is considered to be a rich mixture; any more than 14.7 to 1 is a lean mixture.

129 bhp is not that bad, but a better can may help. On the same Dyno mine was 121 as standard, 125 with Ivan's jet kit/Quill T3 and 135 with the full monty, 4 degree ignition advancer and an Akrapovic Race can. it made 132 with a Quill T3 full road legal can.

How many miles has your bike done, when was it last serviced / plugs changed / EXUP serviced / carbs balanced etc etc.

Different Dynos on Different days with different weather and especially different operators can make a big difference. 5% inaccuracy can mean 6 or 7 bhp either way.

I will pop it on the same Dyno, but it is years later, when I have fitted my full Akrapovic system (thanks Spluter) to see what is occurring.

[mcyoungy]

Can you post up the dyno print out? I was once told mine was running weak but he had his air fuel ratio line (known as stoichiometric ratio) set at 13.7 to 1 and it should be 14.7 to 1.

Stoich is 14.7:1 for gasoline engines. You cannot "set" stoich, it is a standard ratio for perfect combustion. But if you run an engine at stoich it won't last long as it will run too hot, therefore the "safe ideal" ratio is considered to be 13.7:1 and lean/rich is referenced to this. Hence yer maun's dyno printout reading that way.

[Falcon 269]

Hi Ian

Yup, I'm here ... they can't get rid of me.

Typical stock power is 121 - 123bhp at the rear wheel.  A typical post-Full Monty reading is around 135 - 137bhp.  However, as T-mation pointed out, there can be significant variations in dyno results depending on many factors; environmental, operator-related and condition of the bike.  A tight, worn or poorly-lubed chain can rob 4-5bhp alone.

You still have my e-mail address, I hope.  If so, please send me a copy of the dyno chart.  I'd like to see it because the advice to go up 3 - 5 sizes on the main jets is hopelessly wrong.  Seriously, I will put my hat and overcoat on that statement.  If the mains were undersized by that degree you'd be getting nowhere near 130bhp and you'd have very obvious lean running indications. 

Just so as you know, stock mains are a size larger than Ivan's mains.  Ivan uses the smaller main jets because his needle profile is more tapered towards the tip, allowing more fuel past the needle at 3/4 to full throttle.  The stock main jet/needle combination actually runs rich at full throttle, so increasing main jets by 3 - 5 sizes with Ivan's needles simply will not work. 

Based on the advice to supersize the mains alone, I suspect that the dyno results are skewed for one reason or another.  If I can have sight of the dyno chart it will help me diagnose why.

On the silencer question, I understand Simmi are a small local concern in the NE who enjoy a good reputation.  If you're running one of their cans with a dB killer insert that could account for the lower than expected peak power output.  When all is said and done, though, a less restrictive can is exactly that ... it doesn't make a great deal of difference whether it's a top-spec Akrapovic or a well-made budget item.  At most, I'd expect a difference of 2 - 3 bhp at most between best and worst of breed.

One final question.  Was the dyno run a 'dyno day special' ... ie, the sort of offer dealers/tuners do without appointment?  Essentially, a quick strap down and single run for whoever fancies it on the day?

Please get in touch direct and I'll do what I can to interpret the results you have and we can talk it through between us.

Mike

[Tmation]

Stoich is 14.7:1 for gasoline engines. You cannot "set" stoich, it is a standard ratio for perfect combustion. But if you run an engine at stoich it won't last long as it will run too hot, therefore the "safe ideal" ratio is considered to be 13.7:1 and lean/rich is referenced to this. Hence yer maun's dyno printout reading that way.




The last Dyno operator I used had a line on the fuel ratio graph set at 13.7 -1 where as others  have had it set at 14.7 - 1 (not the actual fuel ratio setting) . My fuelling graph has always been less then 14.7 - 1 which is rich and as you say is safe. But the last dyno guy said it was running weak as some of the time it was around the 14.2 - 1 mark. I have never had a problem with my bike and the operator at Junction 19 Dyno (used by a lot of the FZ1S guys and original inventor of the Quill T3 cans) thought it was the smoothest and best fuelling carb bike he had ever tested.

[paul.s]

the dyno centre in malton pickering is top notch mate give him a bell he knows his onions and is honnest 

[mcyoungy]

The last Dyno operator I used had a line on the fuel ratio graph set at 13.7 -1 where as others  have had it set at 14.7 - 1 (not the actual fuel ratio setting) . My fuelling graph has always been less then 14.7 - 1 which is rich and as you say is safe. But the last dyno guy said it was running weak as some of the time it was around the 14.2 - 1 mark. I have never had a problem with my bike and the operator at Junction 19 Dyno (used by a lot of the FZ1S guys and original inventor of the Quill T3 cans) thought it was the smoothest and best fuelling carb bike he had ever tested.

that line isn't stoich, it's ideal air fuel ratio.

[Ian-man]

Wow, opened a can of worms here.

To be honest I thought 3 sizes on mains seemed a lot as the bike runs ok and if it was 3 sizes lean I would have expected some problems.

Exup has not been serviced recently but was working when Mike had a quick look at it last year. Mike also balanced the carbs last year. Plugs have been in for about 3000miles. Oil and filter done last year, 2000miles ago.

My Simmi silencer doesn't have a db killer in but still is not really loud.

It was a special offer quick run session.

I will scan the sheet and send it to you Mike. The mixture graph is on a small side
 on the bottom so not easy to read

[Ian-man]

Maybe an oil change, new plugs and exup service will help. Also got new chain and sprockets so I will re-check the chain tension.

New can might be an option in the future but for a few horses it's not an immediate option. More of a visual upgrade.

I didn't think the bike was running bad but I happened to be at Squires so went along out of curiosity as it was only a fiver. I just expected the horses to be in the 130 to 135 range and wasn't expecting any mixture issues.

[mcyoungy]

I just expected the horses to be in the 130 to 135 range and wasn't expecting any mixture issues.

129.42 is pretty close. Add in a correction factor and you're there.


A can is a can is a can. Changing it for another open race can won't make a whole heap of beans but you'll spend some money and feel better.

[Ian-man]

I just expected the horses to be in the 130 to 135 range and wasn't expecting any mixture issues.

129.42 is pretty close. Add in a correction factor and you're there.


A can is a can is a can. Changing it for another open race can won't make a whole heap of beans but you'll spend some money and feel better.

A nice carbon end tri-oval silencer would look nice !!!!!!!!!!!

[Falcon 269]

That's the flattest air/fuel ratio line I've seen from any of the Fazers I've 'Ivanised'.   Seriously, it's very smooth and only a fraction above where it should be.

A single run for a fiver says it all, I think.  To offer a completely off-the-plot 'cure' based on that doesn't say much to me.  Or maybe it says a lot ... like, "we're drumming up business today, please come back and let us charge you £150 for cock-all".

The 'cure' is to slide the air/fuel sensor a little further into the silencer.  Pay a bit more attention to tyre pressure, strap-down tension, possible drive chain losses etc and not back out of the throttle a shade approaching peak rpm.

If you are still unconvinced, Ian, try another dyno house with a good reputation and ask them to do several runs to confirm best peak power.  Also, get them to show rpm rather than mph on the chart.  Without knowing which gear was used, the mph readout is not much use here.

Mike

[sadlonelygit]

as mike said, nowt much wrong with the fuelling there..........or the power curve tbh. looks like a 4th gear run to me.
reading the top of the page, it reads to me as a bit of a muggy day which is never good for outright power figures.
as has been said before, all a dyno does is show you the way it's making power and fuelling.
some dyno's/operators are more generous than others, if all you're after is a big hp number then shop around, you'll find one eventually.
and as an aside....many moons ago i was over at the TT with an ex v&m 400 that had been set up in slough showing 70hp, but was dog slow around the island. RMD had a racers dyno in the paddock which gave us a reading of 61hp .
after we followed his instructions the next run gave 72hp.....and he told us a plug was breaking down at @16200rpm.....was actually the coil but it amply demonstrates the differences between dynos and operators.

lies, damned lies, statistics and dyno readouts

[pitternator]

I had my  latest gen1 (full monty fitted)  dyno checked at rencullen at Mallory Park last year . I paid full price, the bike had several runs, the operator has to get used to the bike as much as anything. Even in the same session the bhp figures varied just by operator effect alone.As such I reckon this run is too small a sample to make solid recomendations.For the record, my best run was 137 max, thats with a race can with a db insert, so probably 139 would be achievable without it. However the tuner said my air fuel ratio was the best hes seen, and he would not be able to better it.Even more impressive was the flat torque curve, which is just how the bike feels on the road..with hard acceleration starting as low as 4k rpm in top , it does pull really hard. Just the power delivery characteristics I want , peak bhp aint so relevant for me.
My opinion is -
check air filter is not stock, that will skew all the figures, it should be bmc type
get the run done with a race can
make sure engine is serviced, carbs balance detc, so it is at optimum
pay for a full run, usually at least 15 to 20 mins, and get full analysis of the results.
 
as a comparison, my first gen1 as stock was 127 bhp, after dynojet stage 1 kit fitted  was 133bhp peak. But the full monty is an improvement on this, especially in the mid range.

[Ian-man]

I didn't realise that there could be such large variations down to the dyno/operator. As long as I am doing no damage running it as it is then I may leave it as it is.
I don't see the point of travelling to another dyno and throwing money at it for  5bhp or so.

I will do a service, change the plugs and providing it's not doing any harm as it is, then leave it at that.

Just goes to show curiosity and no knowledge can get you into trouble. If it wasn't for all the great people on here I might of went down a path of fixing something that isn't really broken.

[Falcon 269]

... I might of went down a path of fixing something that isn't really broken.

Exactly.  Sound decision, Ian.   To be honest, I don't even think you're down on peak power - it's just that dyno run wasn't optimum, so you're not seeing it in black and white.

Just so as you know, if that air/fuel line really was showing the true state of the fuelling, I'd try one of two small corrections.  Either take the mixture screws out another 1/4 - 1/2 turn or raise the needles by 0.5mm.  I certainly wouldn't be increasing main jet size.

FWIW, I have the full Akra system on mine and have tried going a size larger on the main jets to see if it made any difference.  I felt no benefits performance-wise and saw fuel consumption increase as a downside.  I've also experimented with larger pilot jets and altering the needle position. 

Suffice to say I am back at Ivan's original settings.   

Mike

[locksmith]

Just goes to show curiosity and no knowledge can get you into trouble. If it wasn't for all the great people on here I might of went down a path of fixing something that isn't really broken
There endeth the lesson. Wise words we should all remember

[sadlonelygit]

meeeee-OOOOWWWWWWWW

[b1k3rdude]

To offer a completely off-the-plot 'cure' based on that doesn't say much to me.  Or maybe it says a lot ... like, "we're drumming up business today, please come back and let us charge you £150 to slide the air/fuel sensor a little further into the silencer.

That was my first thought as well, whats the name of this "dyno" place so we can all avoid it...

[Ian-man]

Jordan's in Leeds.

Thanks Mike, While I am doing a service I will give the mixture screws a 1/4 turn.

[Falcon 269]

You'll need a pukka 90 deg carb adjustment 'driver to get at the mixture screws, Ian.  Not cheap if you don't have one already. 

Best advice - not mine originally but I use it frequently - is 'ride more, worry less'

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 Interesting.  Mike did mine many years ago.  The 'full monty' wasn't yet available so I got the then 'slip on' Ivan kit.  Mike did the job (really quick too!) and I took it for a spin.  The difference was immediately  apparent.  First thing was the difference on opening the throttle wide at 2000rpm, it pulled, then a nice big lump of torque at 2500rpm where there was little or nothing before.  Then there was a noticeable lump of extra keenness above 8000rpm.  And throttle response just felt all round a bit tighter. 
But best of all was to come.  One thing that irritated me about the bike was riding through 30 and 40 mph zones.  I had to drop to 4th because of the annoying surging at constant speed small throttle openings (does that make sense) plus vibration.  Now I could potter through towns at 30mph in 6th gear, plus overall vibration was much reduced on the bike.
I was well happy.

I've never stuck it on a dyno.
Oh aye, servicing?  Make sure your air filter is nice and clean.  Yes check C&S.  EXUP should be serviced at least once a year.
 Wondering if you had the bike long before you got it Ivanised. 

[ghostbiker]

Had mine on a dyno run at events 3 times now. each time has given large variations on top BHP
normaly they do 3 runs and take the best of the 3.
One thing i will say is every guy running the dyno has said how good the bhp and torque curve is (no dips) and is allways impressed with the fuel/air ratio.
there is allways a slight lean dip just as he starts the run but was allways told that thats normal and is something to do with the dyno rather than an actual dip in air/fuel ratio.

as i say although the bhp readings have been diff the curves have allways looked the same on each dyno.
for me, bhp numbers are just for braggin rights down the pub. the curve and fuel air mix is what the real ride is all about.

[Ian-man]

You'll need a pukka 90 deg carb adjustment 'driver to get at the mixture screws, Ian.  Not cheap if you don't have one already. 

Best advice - not mine originally but I use it frequently - is 'ride more, worry less'

I don't have a special adjustment screwdriver so I will cross that of the list of things to do. Which will give me more time to stick to the advice.

[1967fazer]

I put mine on Jordans dyno a couple of months ago, on a "pay a fiver and on it goes" day, my bike has a noisy can on, but not (yet) ivanised. Results were 130 bhp! My mate put his on a dyno at Stormin' the Castle last year, similar spec bike, was putting out around 117 bhp. Ride both bikes side by side and there is hardly any difference! So I would suggest trying a different dyno, before doing anything drastic.