Date: 06-12-20  Time: 01:54 AM

Author Topic: Whiney noise  (Read 705 times)

Dudeofrude

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Whiney noise
« on: 14 October 2020, 04:03:47 PM »
Hey, I've put this in general to reach more people but my Gen 2 has suddenly developed a whiney type noise. Wasn't there this morning on the way to work but very apparent on the way home, Its audible straight away from start up and definitely coincides with the revs of the bike.
Can hear it willing revving at standstill and while driving.
Seems to be coming from the around the back of the engine above the stator area. Possibly airbox?
Doesn't seem to affect anything other than my eardrums but is definitely not normally there.
I've attached a short video clip of it, can anyone suggest where to start looking for any issues?
« Last Edit: 14 October 2020, 04:05:28 PM by Dudeofrude »

b1k3rdude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #1 on: 14 October 2020, 05:37:31 PM »
What year is that FZ1?


I ask because if its a 2007 or early 2008 or older it could be the epoxy resin that hold the magnets on the inside of the alternator flywheel failing allowing the magnets to move or come loose. If it is that then you need to stop riding the bike immediately! Below is a video of the same part og a 2007 the failed badly.
« Last Edit: 14 October 2020, 05:48:16 PM by b1k3rdude »

Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #2 on: 14 October 2020, 05:41:18 PM »
What year is that FZ1?

I ask because if its a 2007 or older it could be the epoxy resin that hold the magnets on the inside of the alternator coming loose. If it is that then you need to stop riding the bike immediately!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBTm2b7f6Gc


Haha been there done that mate (you commented on the thread multiple times 😜)
Its a brand new replacement alternator and stator in there so wouldnt think there's any issue with that 👍

Grahamm

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #3 on: 14 October 2020, 05:42:21 PM »
Get a long screwdriver, put the tip against the engine, then press your ear against the handle.

Trace the noise around the engine until you find where it's loudest, which should be the source.

b1k3rdude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #4 on: 14 October 2020, 05:47:36 PM »
hmm...

Have you done "any" work on the bike recently..? or what was the last few jobs you did do on the bike regardless of time frame..?
Regarding the sound its tied to revs, so off the top of my head it could be something come loose from the alternator work you did, or something in the

clutch basket area. Is it your main bike? or are you able to stop riding the bike while you figure out what it is?

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #5 on: 14 October 2020, 05:52:56 PM »
Noises are notoriously difficult to diagnose, via videos or recordings.  Check the stator rotor housing for vibration/noise, if memory serves me you used pattern parts when you replaced it, these can fail.  The noise sounds like very similar to the high pitched wine bearings make when they spin in a rebate or spin on a shaft, it's also possible it's a lay shaft bearing, in the box, clutch or water pump drive.

It could be any number of possibilities, but start with what you've replaced, worked on or you know has been worked on and go from there.  These engines are normally (other than the rotors) pretty reliable, what fails in my experience is owners fitting aftermarket tuning or pattern parts.     
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Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #6 on: 14 October 2020, 06:21:32 PM »
Thanks guys, I haven't done anything with the bike since replacing the stator, probably only rode it for 100miles or less. I highly doubt its the rotor failing again as it may be a pattern part but (let's be fair) there's nothing to break on it? The magnets can't come loose again.
Besides the noise is coming from higher up than that, honestly sounds like its under the airbox? But I haven't had time to take it apart yet so I can't confirm anything.
Its my only bike and worst part is the car has just gone into the garage a few days ago with a failing timing chain so not exactly overjoyed with the prospect of both my vehicles failing in the same week.
Either way I'm gonna swing by my mechanics in the morning and let him listen to save hours of guesswork. I'm still hoping its nothing but will have to wait and see 🤞
« Last Edit: 14 October 2020, 06:24:19 PM by Dudeofrude »

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #7 on: 14 October 2020, 06:31:40 PM »
Its not the rotor, it's the bearings mate.  Even if you've used OE bearings, the rotor could well be slightly different sizes/tolerances and the bearings start spinning, that's the whining they can fail in no time, hopefully not but in some way easier to sort out.

As said it's notoriously difficult to suss noises out, hopefully your chap will suss it and it's nothing bad, it could even be something completely unrelated, i.e. something in the air box, I kid you not.  ;)
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windyg

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #8 on: 14 October 2020, 11:09:04 PM »
This might sound a bit daft but I had a similar problem with my wifes car engine last year , That turned out to be a leaf that had been sucked into the air box, dried out and was vibrating against the air filter

coffee

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #9 on: 15 October 2020, 05:09:07 PM »
This might sound a bit daft but I had a similar problem with my wifes car engine last year , That turned out to be a leaf that had been sucked into the air box, dried out and was vibrating against the air filter








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albuquerqueturkey

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #10 on: 15 October 2020, 06:18:35 PM »
As you replaced your rotor because it failed rather than as a precautionary measure did you replace the bearings at the same time as when the rotor goes it can damage the bearings as gnasher said

Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #11 on: 17 October 2020, 09:20:34 PM »
Well no joy with the Mechanic, he got his stethoscope tool out and had a listen but couldn't precisely pinpoint where the noise is coming from. He said the same as Gnasher, that he would start with the generator as thats the last thing thats changed but other than that he just told me to check as much as I can and if not then he would take it in for a professional going over (at the usual hourly rate 😬)
So I'm going to tackle that on Monday.

The odd thing is the noise has gotten a lot less pronounce since a big backfire that happened on the way home from the garage??
I accelerated quite hard then changed up but there was a 1/2 second delay before the fuel re-engaged (exactly like the fuel cut issues these bikes have) which resulted in a rather large bang and ever since the noise is only noticeable when revving about 5-6k. Its no longer obvious at idle 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ bikes still rides perfectly, no lack of power or anything like that... just sounds like somebody has a hover on next door 😅

Either way I will get to hunting on Monday and if no joy then it'll be going in the garage to start draining my wallet 🙈

b1k3rdude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #12 on: 18 October 2020, 02:24:04 PM »
@gnasher, will the FZ1 run for a short time without the generator in situ? just to see if the noise disappears?
@dude, should not be backfiring at all. Gnasher will have a better idea what might be causing that, but if the generator was the last thing that you touched a random guess is something electrical, eg not enough voltage to the low tension side of the ignition coils.

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #13 on: 18 October 2020, 02:48:13 PM »
It will run without it being plugged in, but if you remove the assembly you wont be able to start it as the starter clutch is all part of the rotor assembly on the back.  You can tell quite easily if the bearings are shot simply, by stripping the rotor and spinning by hand.  What need to be checked is wear on parts of the replacement rotor to ensure they're correct tolerance and the bearings aren't spinning, in their rebates or on the shafts.

As for back firing, normally crap exhaust systems, air leaks, not or badly mapped fuel system, cheap replacement high flow air filters or a mixture of all of it.  So often I see all manner of after market crap on bikes which claim to increase power when in fact they do the opposite, remember noise doesn't equal power and power doesn't always mean better. 

It's were the power increase is in the range and how it's delivered that makes all the difference.  ;)
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b1k3rdude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #14 on: 18 October 2020, 11:02:01 PM »
It will run without it being plugged in, but if you remove the assembly you wont be able to start it as the starter clutch is all part of the rotor assembly on the back.  You can tell quite easily if the bearings are shot simply, by stripping the rotor and spinning by hand.  What need to be checked is wear on parts of the replacement rotor to ensure they're correct tolerance and the bearings aren't spinning, in their rebates or on the shafts.
Ah ok, I thought it was ancillary to the engine. @Dude, did you thoroughly check both bearings when you had the rotor out..?

Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #15 on: 19 October 2020, 01:00:33 PM »
Well no joy today either. Took apart the rotor and stairs again but both bearings look and sound fine?? Nothing to report under the tank either. With everything stripped back I could really tell the noise is coming from behind the generator area?? All signs would point to that but as I say there's nothing wrong in there so I'm stumped?
My next option is to have it looked at by the mechanic, but thats going to potentially be a money pit if he can't find anything wrong either 😬


Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #16 on: 19 October 2020, 01:04:21 PM »
Heres a video of the inner bearing in action

Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #17 on: 19 October 2020, 01:04:49 PM »
And the outer

Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #18 on: 19 October 2020, 05:45:50 PM »
https://www.r1-forum.com/threads/new-noise.571770/

So after googled more about 'generator bearing noise' I came across this on the R1 forum. Thats exactly how mine sounds (also same engine) and he problem was the bearing in the cover was completely shattered!? But mine is perfectly fine?? But I suppose it's probably worth me changing it just to eliminate it from the list of possibilities?

My next question (probably for Gnasher haha) is how to get it out? I undid the the stator removed all of the bolts on the outside of the cover but it seems to be behind another layer of metal which wouldn't move? I couldn't for the life of me find a way to get to it 🤷‍♂️

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #19 on: 19 October 2020, 06:59:12 PM »
From memory, the stub axle is a push fit, gently heat the casing and it should drop out.  It's normally the generator shaft bearing that fails in my experience, that the one in engine case. 

https://www.r1-forum.com/threads/starter-clutch-bearing-install.568473/

If the front cover bearing has gone you will be able to feel and hear it.   
« Last Edit: 19 October 2020, 07:03:27 PM by Gnasher »
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Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #20 on: 20 October 2020, 01:42:58 PM »
From memory, the stub axle is a push fit, gently heat the casing and it should drop out.  It's normally the generator shaft bearing that fails in my experience, that the one in engine case. 

https://www.r1-forum.com/threads/starter-clutch-bearing-install.568473/

If the front cover bearing has gone you will be able to feel and hear it.   

But as you can see from the pics and videos, theu are both fine? Both operate correctly, no noises or resistance??
So I'm baffled as it sounds like it should be the bearings 🤷‍♂️

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #21 on: 20 October 2020, 04:30:04 PM »
But as you can see from the pics and videos, theu are both fine? Both operate correctly, no noises or resistance??
So I'm baffled as it sounds like it should be the bearings

As mentioned earlier these noises can be notoriously difficult to find at times.  Have you checked the airbox intake along it's whole length, air filter not torn, throttle body rubbers to head and to the bodies? Failing that, the clutch has a few bearings, oil and water pump drive chain or one of the pumps, or the gear box.

If you pull the clutch in does the noise change, on the main stand and in gear let the clutch out (be careful) increase the revs, is it still there better worse, same?   
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Dudeofrude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #22 on: 20 October 2020, 05:44:06 PM »
But as you can see from the pics and videos, theu are both fine? Both operate correctly, no noises or resistance??
So I'm baffled as it sounds like it should be the bearings

As mentioned earlier these noises can be notoriously difficult to find at times.  Have you checked the airbox intake along it's whole length, air filter not torn, throttle body rubbers to head and to the bodies? Failing that, the clutch has a few bearings, oil and water pump drive chain or one of the pumps, or the gear box.

If you pull the clutch in does the noise change, on the main stand and in gear let the clutch out (be careful) increase the revs, is it still there better worse, same?

I've checked the airbox and filter thoroughly, haven't looked at the throttle bodies at all.
I did ponder clutch but noise is nowhere near that area and pulling the clutch lever (either in gear or out) has no effect of it what so ever

Every bit of research I do on the web points to the generator, most people seem to hear this noise first then find out theirs has gone to pieces.

https://youtu.be/mIaMQU9vg4Q

Thats an example of an R1 making the exact same noise but his outer bearing was completely shattered unlike mine

My only thoughts now are to either A. Ignore it or B. Spend the money replacing to 2 seemly fine bearings just for the sake of it to see if that fixes things 🤷‍♂️

b1k3rdude

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #23 on: 20 October 2020, 08:17:10 PM »
B. Spend the money replacing to 2 seemly fine bearings just for the sake of it to see if that fixes things
This is a f*** load cheaper than trying to repair/replace and engine if the bearings let go.
@Gnasher does Dude have to buy genuine or will these bearings (like most bearings) have a bearing code of them so he can get a set from a reputable bearing supplier?

Gnasher

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Re: Whiney noise
« Reply #24 on: 21 October 2020, 11:29:30 AM »
B. Spend the money replacing to 2 seemly fine bearings just for the sake of it to see if that fixes things
This is a f*** load cheaper than trying to repair/replace and engine if the bearings let go.
@Gnasher does Dude have to buy genuine or will these bearings (like most bearings) have a bearing code of them so he can get a set from a reputable bearing supplier?


All quality bearings will have a code on them, usually on the thrust face of the inner or outer race.  Yamaha don't make bearings they'll buy in normally SKF, in fact there's not that many quality bearing manufacturers.     
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