No sympathy for Gunmen

[darrsi]

Darrsi, I agree entirely with what you say, so how about the Government remove the middle man and legalise drugs. The money raised by the sale of drugs could used to prop up the failing NHS.

Haha, another can of worms entirely.
I've had this discussion with friends before and i've found that people tend not to look at the bigger picture.
For starters legalising drugs will play even more into dealers hands that will undercut any government run shops selling weed, for example.
Then you get people who have the impression that it will just be some mad free for all, when in reality you will get employers doing random drug testing due to a zero tolerance at work. Same as the police will step up again being even more alert for drug drivers which will result in long term bans.
If anything, the only real people who would benefit would be the ones that aren't working.
All theory of course, and some people, as always, will think i'm talking shite, but that's the way i see things.
There is no real straightforward answer, because as i said earlier the demand is so great that the police will never ever control it as things stand right now.
Also, which drugs should become legal?
I've got a few mates who rarely know what time of day or night it is, don't know the meaning of punctuality and are useless at work, and they just smoke the weed.
I know other people on the harder stuff that turn into absolute monsters when they're on a mission.
There is no easy answer unfortunately.


As for the NHS, they're going downhill fast due to the influx of people coming into the country and using the system without putting anything into it in the first place.

[Slaninar]

Haha, another can of worms entirely.
I've had this discussion with friends before and i've found that people tend not to look at the bigger picture.
For starters legalising drugs will play even more into dealers hands that will undercut any government run shops selling weed, for example.

Dealers would be first to petition for banning the drugs again. They're not into selling weed at the price of growing and harvesting. If the drugs weren't illegal, they'd be cheaply produced and mafia has no interest in honest work with small profit.


This way: false moral of "fighting drugs" image is "sold".
Mafia makes money.
Agencies have income that isn't taxed, nor controlled.
There's more crime, people are more easily scared.
And drugs are widely available across Europe.

Then you get people who have the impression that it will just be some mad free for all, when in reality you will get employers doing random drug testing due to a zero tolerance at work. Same as the police will step up again being even more alert for drug drivers which will result in long term bans.
If anything, the only real people who would benefit would be the ones that aren't working.

Holland's experience in legalising weed hasn't backfired for all I know - correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd do the same for all the other drugs.

All theory of course, and some people, as always, will think i'm talking shite, but that's the way i see things.
There is no real straightforward answer, because as i said earlier the demand is so great that the police will never ever control it as things stand right now.

They'd control it as much as they can control other legal high demand articles: tobacco, alcohol, petrol, bread, meat...

Also, which drugs should become legal?
I've got a few mates who rarely know what time of day or night it is, don't know the meaning of punctuality and are useless at work, and they just smoke the weed.
I know other people on the harder stuff that turn into absolute monsters when they're on a mission.
There is no easy answer unfortunately.

All the drugs. You are responsible for what you do. But legalising them would help addicts not need to do crime for getting the drugs.
If a grown man wants to kill themselves - government shouldn't force them to live. Help, yes, but not force.
If a man wants to loose their freedom of choice, he shouldn't be forced to do otherwise - because that's their choice!

As for the NHS, they're going downhill fast due to the influx of people coming into the country and using the system without putting anything into it in the first place.

How much money is spent this way on "figthing drugs"?
Police equipment, numbers, overtime hours, higher level of drug related small crimes done by addicts...


I think legalising would turn out quite well for all but the mafia.

[BBROWN1664]

Legalising drugs will not stop the crime of those that want money to buy them.
It will stop the crimes relating to those selling the drugs though. Plod wont need to chase the dealers, the dealer may even pay taxes on their sales and as the drug trade is legal, the dealers will have less reason to arm themselves apart from to protect themselves from junkies after a fix with no cash. Sort of sorts itself out if you look at it that way, as the junkies will kill themselves with the drugs or get shot trying to steal the (now) legal drugs and plod can just turn a blind eye.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Society in the UK is making that choice more and more difficult every waking day. There is gun crime practically every night in and around the major cities and towns the length and breadth of the land.

  Don't forget that the UK is one of the biggest arms exporters in the world, we'll sell to practically anybody.  And our government doesn’t really give too much of a fuck what those weapons get used for.
So let’s just say that will all the shit we sell, combined with all the shit other countries sell, well it’s inevitable some of that stuff will end up creeping back in.  You could call guns on the streets of the UK as a form of collateral damage.
As for drugs.  Round here there is a small but steady stream of house break ins.  Most of them are opportunist, and if you do pop out and forget to lock the back door or close all the windows and return to find you have been turned over you can just about guarantee you’ve been screwed by the local junkies.  Just give em their shit for crying out loud.  And clean shit that won’t then have them clogging up the NHS.
 

[darrsi]

I'm fairly straight thinking where house burglars are concerned......just hang the bastards if found guilty! Even more so if they do it as a profession rather than just being desperate for money for drugs.
Job done.

[Graham53]

I'm fairly straight thinking where house burglars are concerned......just hang the bastards if found guilty! Even more so if they do it as a profession rather than just being desperate for money for drugs.
Job done.

Agree
It's One of the worst regularly committed crimes that makes people scared to go back to their own home and unsafe when there .
Cut their hands and feet off if you can't hang them.
Plus junkies will still steal to buy legal drugs didn't legal highs prove that , thinking legalising it will solve the problem is just tosh

[darrsi]

I'm fairly straight thinking where house burglars are concerned......just hang the bastards if found guilty! Even more so if they do it as a profession rather than just being desperate for money for drugs.
Job done.

Agree
It's One of the worst regularly committed crimes that makes people scared to go back to their own home and unsafe when there .
Cut their hands and feet off if you can't hang them.
Plus junkies will still steal to buy legal drugs didn't legal highs prove that , thinking legalising it will solve the problem is just tosh

On the plus side to the argument, i think it's quite sad the amount of news that has been made by people dying from taking legal highs.
Some of this shit blatantly says "Not For Human Consumption" plastered all over it, but because it says "legal" some naive people think "it can't be that bad".
Petrol's legal, but i wouldn't drink a pint of it.
The people that take this crap and suffer the consequences are either very easily led or just a little bit too stupid for their own good.......or on drugs.


So if drugs were made legal, regulated and tested for safety then that's only a positive thing, which i'm told is standard practice in Amsterdam (my mate lives there).

[Graham53]

From what I understand of it drugs are still illegal in holland, you can smoke in cafes but you can't smoke it anywhere and their rubbish bags are nicked regularly so the butts can be scavenged for tiny bits, class a drugs cannot be sold but in certain places they have a relaxed attitude to try to ensure users safety so they can test their cocaine or ecstasy shit to make sure it's good shit not bad shit before they take it.
I could be mistaken I am more than I'm not but the problem here it's the way the junkies pay for them by committing crimes.

[darrsi]

From what I understand of it drugs are still illegal in holland, you can smoke in cafes but you can't smoke it anywhere and their rubbish bags are nicked regularly so the butts can be scavenged for tiny bits, class a drugs cannot be sold but in certain places they have a relaxed attitude to try to ensure users safety so they can test their cocaine or ecstasy shit to make sure it's good shit not bad shit before they take it.
I could be mistaken I am more than I'm not but the problem here it's the way the junkies pay for them by committing crimes.

The thing about your proper junkies, is what fucking use are they to anyone?
They ponce off the state, beg in the street, will nick anything that isn't nailed down and you wouldn't want to even consider employing them.
I think they're up there along side burglars in my opinion, in fact they probably are the burglars anyway.
There's some crackhead who pops his head in my local every now and then, trying to sell really random stuff, and i often wonder what poor sod has just fallen foul of the thieving gits dirty hands. He needs stringing up for everyone's sake as well.

[Graham53]

From what I understand of it drugs are still illegal in holland, you can smoke in cafes but you can't smoke it anywhere and their rubbish bags are nicked regularly so the butts can be scavenged for tiny bits, class a drugs cannot be sold but in certain places they have a relaxed attitude to try to ensure users safety so they can test their cocaine or ecstasy shit to make sure it's good shit not bad shit before they take it.
I could be mistaken I am more than I'm not but the problem here it's the way the junkies pay for them by committing crimes.

The thing about your proper junkies, is what fucking use are they to anyone?
They ponce off the state, beg in the street, will nick anything that isn't nailed down and you wouldn't want to even consider employing them.
I think they're up there along side burglars in my opinion, in fact they probably are the burglars anyway.
There's some crackhead who pops his head in my local every now and then, trying to sell really random stuff, and i often wonder what poor sod has just fallen foul of the thieving gits dirty hands. He needs stringing up for everyone's sake as well.

Here here
With you all the way

[Slaninar]

Legalising drugs will not stop the crime of those that want money to buy them.
It will stop the crimes relating to those selling the drugs though. Plod wont need to chase the dealers, the dealer may even pay taxes on their sales and as the drug trade is legal, the dealers will have less reason to arm themselves apart from to protect themselves from junkies after a fix with no cash. Sort of sorts itself out if you look at it that way, as the junkies will kill themselves with the drugs or get shot trying to steal the (now) legal drugs and plod can just turn a blind eye.

Millions... billions of profit are made on drugs.
Legalizing them would make the price drop to 1/100 of the current price. You could grow poppy and produce high quality heroin in your own back yard, practically. 
Vast percentage of small crime that targets ordinary people in my country comes from addicts desperate for quick cash for a fix. One fix of heroin costs about half a whole day's wage now. If it were a lot cheaper, or growing your own were allowed, those desperate poor sods would probably be more productive than the Japanese! 


Many rich junkies live long with drug abuse. Like decades. Have jobs, kids. Lowering the price would allow most people to do so.


Giving people education and choices is the best way to fight addiction. Lots of propaganda is targeted at how  dangerous drugs are, while kids know they are nice, you get high. I'd make propaganda saying: yes, you will get high, it will be great. The price you pay is your  freedom of choice, you will loose it. Heroin - 99% you're hooked for life. It will feel great, but it will be the only thing you will ever want and seek and do until you die.


This video was interesting for me:

[slappy]

Make drugs legal and all that will happen is that the Tobacco and Alcohol companies will switch production to drugs as they have nothing to lose, governments will  lose tax money so they will just heavily tax drugs instead and then all the do gooders will be telling you that you should just have so many drug hits a week and that governments should tax them even more. Drug dealers will then just produce more crappy shit and undercut the taxed legal drugs, just as they do now with alcohol and drugs. 
Interesting that people want to legalise drugs but they seem to forget that governments all over the world are trying to restrict alcohol and cigarette use which are legal to use and buy.

[Graham53]

Make drugs legal and all that will happen is that the Tobacco and Alcohol companies will switch production to drugs as they have nothing to lose, governments will  lose tax money so they will just heavily tax drugs instead and then all the do gooders will be telling you that you should just have so many drug hits a week and that governments should tax them even more. Drug dealers will then just produce more crappy shit and undercut the taxed legal drugs, just as they do now with alcohol and drugs. 
Interesting that people want to legalise drugs but they seem to forget that governments all over the world are trying to restrict alcohol and cigarette use which are legal to use and buy.

Agree , and I also think comparing Britain to other countries like holland is mis guided , we have a culture here of binge and under age drinking that is not present in other countries , if you legalise drugs you run the risk of binge drugging or overdosing and many other problems that I don't think anyone proposing or supporting it has thought through. For example in the last 10 years since the laws on cannabis were "relaxed" you see more and more teenagers using it openly on the streets and it's almost become socially acceptable. skunk has grown more prevalent, more people are growing it in homes and and there has also been a rise of mental health problems caused by smoking cannabis. imagine the problems we have in Britain today with alcohol use ( check out A&E on Saturday nights ) then imagine the same attitudes of those people with cocaine , heroin , ecstasy , speed , lsd

[Slaninar]

Make drugs legal and all that will happen is that the Tobacco and Alcohol companies will switch production to drugs as they have nothing to lose, governments will  lose tax money so they will just heavily tax drugs instead and then all the do gooders will be telling you that you should just have so many drug hits a week and that governments should tax them even more. Drug dealers will then just produce more crappy shit and undercut the taxed legal drugs, just as they do now with alcohol and drugs. 
Interesting that people want to legalise drugs but they seem to forget that governments all over the world are trying to restrict alcohol and cigarette use which are legal to use and buy.

Cigars and alcohol are highly taxed in my country, but not nearly enough to make black market highly profitable enough to be massive.
Also, the prices are not as high as they are for drugs, so you don't see people stealing things to get cigars and alcohol. Even the lowlifes that are addicted to alcohol.

Legalizing drugs will not influence the profit of cigars and alcohol in a big way. You don't quit smoking (and drinking) when you use drugs, quite the contrary.

Last time USA tried to make alcohol illegal was a great time for mafia, great business.
Restricting and controlling use is one thing, making it prohibited and illegal might sound similar, but it's far from it.

[lew600fazer]

Still reckon the best way is to legalise drugs, yes some scroat will always find something else and will still mug and rob regardless, but those who can afford to get there fix just might go down to the Chemists and buy their fix there.
Also while on the subject about legalising things in the UK, it really is time to legalise Prostitution, again cut out the middle man, Hookers get regular check ups and some may even pay tax on their earnings. If it stops one rape because someone who is need of a shag can safely kerb crawl knowing that the old bill will not lift him while getting his or her jollies why not. Only down side of this for me is my days as a Gigolo are well behind me, get a hard on these days and it scares the crap out of me as I think it is rigor mortis setting in, and please don't mention Viagra as I have a heart condition 

[slappy]

Never bothered too much about sex, rather have a few chocolate hobnobs and a pot of tea, funnily enough my wife prefers me to have hobnobs as well.

[slappy]

Cigarettes and alcohol are highly taxed in Britain as well but premises are raided every day because they are selling illegally imported stuff that are highly dangerous to health, Just making something legal will not stop the criminal gangs, they have too much to loose.

[Dudeofrude]

Cigarettes and alcohol are highly taxed in Britain as well but premises are raided every day because they are selling illegally imported stuff that are highly dangerous to health, Just making something legal will not stop the criminal gangs, they have too much to loose.

Nothing to do with being dangerous for your health,  the government just don't like loosing out on tax money

[Slaninar]

Cigarettes and alcohol are highly taxed in Britain as well but premises are raided every day because they are selling illegally imported stuff that are highly dangerous to health, Just making something legal will not stop the criminal gangs, they have too much to loose.

Probably because of profit. If taxes were comparable to the rest of europe, there would be no smuggling, wouldn't be as profitable.
Same goes with drugs - make the price low enough so black market can't have a big enough profit margin, and the black market isn't interested in it.

[darrsi]

Cigarettes and alcohol are highly taxed in Britain as well but premises are raided every day because they are selling illegally imported stuff that are highly dangerous to health, Just making something legal will not stop the criminal gangs, they have too much to loose.

Probably because of profit. If taxes were comparable to the rest of europe, there would be no smuggling, wouldn't be as profitable.
Same goes with drugs - make the price low enough so black market can't have a big enough profit margin, and the black market isn't interested in it.

Why would the government lower prices on something that can cause mental illness, medical problems, laziness, unpredictable behaviour, crime and random violence, or ultimately death? We already have booze and cigarettes for that, so i can't really see them adding another problem to the equation.
And there will always be a black market where drugs are concerned, it's just simple competition and a way to make "easy" money due to the demand.
If the government sells whatever for £20, then the competition will say £15, and the people "most likely" to want it all the time would much rather pay £15 than £20, it's no different to going shopping, everyone loves a bargain, and they couldn't care less where it comes from as long as the cost is kept down.
And bearing in mind, as i said earlier, right now i hear about more people dying on "legal" highs than i do on anything else. So what do you do about all that shit that's killing idiots off, make it illegal???
I would leave that crap as it is, and let natural selection take its place. If you want to take something that says "NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" on the packet then more fool you, a bit like a bottle of bleach that says "DO NOT DRINK". 

[BBROWN1664]

Slaninar - To make us jealous, how much would a packet of 20 cigarettes cost in your country? also , a pint (500ml will do) of beer?

I believe we are taxed higher on these in this country than any other country in the world. Same with petrol which is currently at £1.18/litre round here.

[slappy]

Sort of connected to the way this thread has evolved, there is an article on the bbc news website about a concept that is being considered in Russia about banning smoking for anybody born in 2014 or after.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38571174/young-russians-born-this-decade-face-complete-smoking-ban

[Slaninar]

Why would the government lower prices on something that can cause mental illness, medical problems, laziness, unpredictable behaviour, crime and random violence, or ultimately death? We already have booze and cigarettes for that, so i can't really see them adding another problem to the equation.

Just to make some things clear:

Drugs don't cause violence as much as alcohol.
By low prices I'm talking about not taxing too much, not subsidizing prices.
Legal and cheap drugs have two immediate benefits:
1) Mafia looses a very big income.
2) Less crime done by drug addicts - since the drugs aren't outrageosly expensive.
Leaving the drugs illegal doesn't influence the number of addicts, unlike propaganda and fear mongering that is spread about it. There are better ways of decreasing the percentage of drug addicts in a population.

One of the reasons, apart from being a big source of "unseen" income, for keeping the drugs illegal is what you say: people tend to become "lazy". Not good, obedient workers and consumers.

And there will always be a black market where drugs are concerned, it's just simple competition and a way to make "easy" money due to the demand.
If the government sells whatever for £20, then the competition will say £15, and the people "most likely" to want it all the time would much rather pay £15 than £20, it's no different to going shopping, everyone loves a bargain, and they couldn't care less where it comes from as long as the cost is kept down.

This conclusion jumps over some obvious facts. Is there a black market for toilet paper? I'm sure there is, but not nearly as big as armed, as crime propelling - compared to drugs trafficing. If you let people grow poppy and produce heroin in their own back yards, how cheaper (and how to make it cheaper) would mafia prices have to be? And with that profit margin, what dishonest, easy money grabbing man would get into such business?!

And bearing in mind, as i said earlier, right now i hear about more people dying on "legal" highs than i do on anything else. So what do you do about all that shit that's killing idiots off, make it illegal???
I would leave that crap as it is, and let natural selection take its place. If you want to take something that says "NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" on the packet then more fool you, a bit like a bottle of bleach that says "DO NOT DRINK". 

Things like education, making a more humane society, helping people - all good.
However, when someone decides to kill themselves, it should be respected as a free choice IMO. Whichever way they choose. Drugs, jumping off a bridge, racing motorcycles... 

Drugs and prostitution should be legalized.

And all the nations should start driving properly, on the left hand side, by the way.   

[Slaninar]

Slaninar - To make us jealous, how much would a packet of 20 cigarettes cost in your country? also , a pint (500ml will do) of beer?

I believe we are taxed higher on these in this country than any other country in the world. Same with petrol which is currently at £1.18/litre round here.

Monthly incomes and prices:

Average pay is about 250 euros per month. School proffessors get under 400. Engineers - 500 to 1000 (over that is rare). If both man and woman earn over 600 euros, with no more than 2 kids, you can live rather decently.
Rent of a small (under 30 sq. m) flat is about 100 euros. Add 80 more for bills.  Double that for 50-60 meters.
Pack of cigarettes is under 2 euros. Home made tobacco (illegal, but widespread for high taxes on cigars) is 1/4 the price.
0.5 litres of beer is under 0.5 euros.
Rakija, popular local spirit (yes, it is better than whiskey and vodka!) is still legal to make at home. It is sold for 2 to 4 euros per litre, but home made is best (and free   ).

Very poor country, hard life.  With lots of crime. Used to be a lot better during the "dark communist era". Even better than the western Europe IMO. Now getting worse each year.

[darrsi]

"...Drugs don't cause violence as much as alcohol..."

Well I dunno about where you live, but to me that statement is almost laughable.
Any very violent crime I see when out and about, or read about, normally involves somebody on drugs, mainly cocaine if truth be told.
Admittedly, they may have had booze at the same time as well, but it's the drugs that make people randomly switch temper.
This is something the media get wrong all of the time, they will nearly always report someone as being drunk because that's what the guilty party will only admit to, plus the arresting officer will see that you look drunk and smell of drink. There's no point of admitting drug use as well to add to your crime if you think you're gonna get away with it.